Do it yourself!

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
kryptos
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Do it yourself!

Post by kryptos »

Friends in the Dhamma!

There were many independent renunciants in the ancient India, Gotama himself was one. Let's assume that someone wants to become an independent renunciant nowadays (not an ordained monk) to practice a very simple life based on Buddha-Dhamma, 10 precepts, meditation, mendicancy, seclusion in forests/parks/gardens, dwelling under trees or in ruins and taking shower in rivers or wherever.

Questions:

(1) Is it possible to practice in India or Nepal nowadays? Do modern citizens support independent renunciants? How are they seen by the society?
(2) How should one proceed in order to live like that?
(3) I think getting new visas would be a problem, wouldn't it?
(4) If that is definitely impossible, are there alternatives? :thinking:
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Why do you think practice is any different in India/Nepal, than it is where you are right now?

Is it necessary for you to travel there?

I merely ask, because a person of my acquaintance has done such a thing in Italy....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Goofaholix
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by Goofaholix »

I can just imagine the visa application, no job, no money, no return ticket, no travel insurance, then of course probably every 3 months you'd have to cross the border to renew your visa and who's going to pay for that. The locals probably do feed locals who choose this lifestyle but what would they make of a foreigner.

The question i'd as is why would you want to?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
walkart
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by walkart »

Be carefull.
AN 10.99
kryptos
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by kryptos »

Thanks! My answers:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Why do you think practice is any different in India/Nepal, than it is where you are right now?
Is it necessary for you to travel there?
I merely ask, because a person of my acquaintance has done such a thing in Italy....
I believe that living in India or Nepal would be better because mendicancy of that type (with a spiritual goal) is a normal thing or at least used to be. I have never been to India, but I would like to. Hmmm... Sounds good. How have your acquaintance done such a thing in Italy? Depending on the solution, I would be interested, too. Thanks.
Goofaholix wrote:I can just imagine the visa application, no job, no money, no return ticket, no travel insurance, then of course probably every 3 months you'd have to cross the border to renew your visa and who's going to pay for that. The locals probably do feed locals who choose this lifestyle but what would they make of a foreigner.
The question i'd as is why would you want to?
I am not concerned about having a job, money, return ticket, travel insurance. I want to be a renunciant relying on my faith, practices, people's generosity and Buddha-Dhamma. I am not worried about how painful life might be. I wouldn't like to go illegal in terms of staying in the country without permission. I have sufficient money to get new Visas for the first three years and I would ask some local to keep my money and help me with that. In the meantime I would expect someone to help me in this matter for the next years.

Why? Because I want to simplify my practice by not having to follow the Vinaya in the same way the ordained monks do in Theravada Tradition. I am not against Vinaya or Theravada Tradition, but I prefer to live under my own policy and not under the policy of an institution. I lived in SE Asia for some time and my opinion is based on experience. So, it's not a matter of what is wrong or not. I don't think like that. I respect everybody but I also have the freedom to choose my own path and there is nothing wrong about that. Beyond that, I am not one of those purists who think there is only one path.
walkart wrote:Be carefull.
AN 10.99
That helps, thanks! My practice would not take place only in the forests, I would live in the villages, gardens, ruins and parks, too, as I said before. I do not think that living in complete seclusion for a long time is healthy and safe.
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appicchato
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by appicchato »

(1) Is it possible to practice in India or Nepal nowadays? Do modern citizens support independent renunciants? How are they seen by the society?
(2) How should one proceed in order to live like that?
(3) I think getting new visas would be a problem, wouldn't it?
(4) If that is definitely impossible, are there alternatives?
(1) It's possible to practice anywhere. Depends...one citizen's independent renunciant is another's bum. Which one?
(2) It's your plan...for you to figure out.
(3) Yes.
(4) There is always an alternative.

All the best...
kryptos
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by kryptos »

Anagarika Dharmapala seems to be a good source of inspiration.

"'Dharmapala' means 'protector of the dharma'. 'Anagarika' means "homeless one". It is a midway status between monk and layperson. As such, he took the eight precepts (refrain from killing, stealing, sexual activity, wrong speech, intoxicating drinks and drugs, eating after noon, entertainments and fashionable attire, and luxurious beds) for life. These eight precepts were commonly taken by Ceylonese laypeople on observance days.[3] But for a person to take them for life was highly unusual. Dharmapala was the first anagarika - that is, a celibate, full-time worker for Buddhism - in modern times. It seems that he took a vow of celibacy at the age of eight and remained faithful to it all his life. Although he wore a yellow robe, it was not of the traditional bhikkhu pattern, and he did not shave his head. He felt that the observance of all the vinaya rules would get in the way of his work, especially as he flew around the world. Neither the title nor the office became popular, but in this role, he "was the model for lay activism in modernist Buddhism."[4] He is considered a bodhisattva in Sri Lanka.[5]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagarika_Dharmapala
SamKR
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by SamKR »

kryptos wrote: I believe that living in India or Nepal would be better because mendicancy of that type (with a spiritual goal) is a normal thing or at least used to be. I have never been to India, but I would like to. Hmmm... Sounds good. How have your acquaintance done such a thing in Italy? Depending on the solution, I would be interested, too. Thanks.
Mendicancy with spiritual goal near villages or independent spiritual practices in the wilderness were very normal thing in the past (from ancient times until even a few decades ago). But the countries have changed - population increased, and people's preferences and way of living has changed drastically in the last few decades. Due to numerous fake mendicants/yogis and fraud & hypocrite gurus, the negative attitude towards spiritualism as a whole is increasing among modern educated people. So, I am not sure if such mendicancy and independent spiritual practice is still feasible. Although it does not seem to be easy, it is not impossible either if you are really really determined and you are good at connecting with people easily. I believe real yogis with real spiritual focus and having ability to influence people can still gain support and respect from society. I don't know where you are from, but being a Westerner should be a plus, I guess - because many educated religious people in urban areas here like and do respect when a Westerner is trying to adopt Eastern spirituality). But recent political situation may make it a bit harder: I am not sure about India, but in the last decade the Maoist conflict has changed a lot in Nepal. (I was born and raised in Nepal.)
kryptos wrote: I am not concerned about having a job, money, return ticket, travel insurance. I want to be a renunciant relying on my faith, practices, people's generosity and Buddha-Dhamma. I am not worried about how painful life might be. I wouldn't like to go illegal in terms of staying in the country without permission. I have sufficient money to get new Visas for the first three years and I would ask some local to keep my money and help me with that. In the meantime I would expect someone to help me in this matter for the next years.
I guess it is not easy to gain any long term visa allowing one to roam freely as a mendicant. I have seen foreigners (from the West) settled in Nepal, so I guess it should be possible to gain citizenship, but not easily. It could be a bit easier in India, I guess.
SarathW
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by SarathW »

kryptos wrote:Anagarika Dharmapala seems to be a good source of inspiration.

"'Dharmapala' means 'protector of the dharma'. 'Anagarika' means "homeless one". It is a midway status between monk and layperson. As such, he took the eight precepts (refrain from killing, stealing, sexual activity, wrong speech, intoxicating drinks and drugs, eating after noon, entertainments and fashionable attire, and luxurious beds) for life. These eight precepts were commonly taken by Ceylonese laypeople on observance days.[3] But for a person to take them for life was highly unusual. Dharmapala was the first anagarika - that is, a celibate, full-time worker for Buddhism - in modern times. It seems that he took a vow of celibacy at the age of eight and remained faithful to it all his life. Although he wore a yellow robe, it was not of the traditional bhikkhu pattern, and he did not shave his head. He felt that the observance of all the vinaya rules would get in the way of his work, especially as he flew around the world. Neither the title nor the office became popular, but in this role, he "was the model for lay activism in modernist Buddhism."[4] He is considered a bodhisattva in Sri Lanka.[5]"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagarika_Dharmapala
Anagarika Dhrmapala is one of my hero’s.
:anjali:
I saw his photo in a local stamp when I was about seven years old.
I still vividly remember affection for him even without knowing who he was.
Sometimes I day dream following his footsteps.
One of my friends said, that the vehicle he used to travel is still preserved in Sri Lanka.

See some info about his contemporary H.Olcott

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19685
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
piano piano
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by piano piano »

About the logistics of doing your thing in India and Nepal, there are the following considerations. You would travel to India on a tourist visa, which limits your stay for a maximum of 180 days for one entry (visa starts counting from first day of issue, not from first day of entering the country). If you happen to be a U.S. citizen, you can apply for a ten-year-visa which gives you the right to enter India for 20 times 180 day-stays in sequence, but you need to leave at the latest on each 180th day, for instance to Nepal, entering which costs you 25 US Dollars each time for 15 days stay, 40 for a month, or 100 for 3 months.

If you are not an American, you have to go the way of ordinary mortals, and apply for 6-months-visas for India each time you need to leave. Your best option in such circumstances is to stay in India for 6 months, then migrate to Nepal vor 150 days (max allowed stay in Nepal), then apply for India visa again, and stay in India again. Visas always cost money, though, and you cannot do without. Visa issuing changes from time to time. You might be asked to go to your home-country to apply for a 6-month-visa, and be given only 3 months.

Most Theravada Buddhist monks use money in India. India does not understand the tradition of Pindapat anymore. You won't get food from anyone, except if you educate them.

You could do your thing in Sri Lanka or Thailand, however, where that tradition is still strong. I don't see why you should search out places where the traditions are not accepted. Staunch monks are doing that in the hills of Sri Lanka, where they share the forest with wild elephants and other dangers. You could just get ordained by anyone, and then go your way. There are well-known Western monks who did not undergo a 5-year-nissaya. For the visa-situation in Sri Lanka you need some strong support, meaning good connections (places like Na Uyana are a good connection, but it can also be done thru other links to the Government).
kryptos
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by kryptos »

Excellent description, SamKR. I will take it all into consideration. Thanks a lot!
piano piano wrote: You could do your thing in Sri Lanka or Thailand, however, where that tradition is still strong. I don't see why you should search out places where the traditions are not accepted. Staunch monks are doing that in the hills of Sri Lanka, where they share the forest with wild elephants and other dangers. You could just get ordained by anyone, and then go your way. There are well-known Western monks who did not undergo a 5-year-nissaya. For the visa-situation in Sri Lanka you need some strong support, meaning good connections (places like Na Uyana are a good connection, but it can also be done thru other links to the Government).
Hi, piano piano. Sounds good. I thought about this alternative before, but I ended up not considering it anymore because of the 5-year-nissaya period. Questions:
(1) Isn't it mandatory? Is it a decision taken by the recently ordained monk? I thought it was mandatory and a serious commitment at least in Thailand.
(2) In the case I decide to not undergo the 5-year-nissaya: Would it destroy the "legal" connection between me and the monastery/order?
(3) Would I have to return to the monastery for visa issues prior to one year period? How would the abbot treat me?
(4) What are the western monks you know that live that way?
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James the Giant
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by James the Giant »

You don't need to go to asian countries to be a self-ordained mendicant, living alone and wandering for alms.
It is possible in the west, at least in Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.
When I was at a monastery in New Zealand, one of the monks decided to test if he could survive on just what the local people gave him, without relying on monastery food. He went on pindabat every day, walking to a nearby supermarket and shopping centre, and just standing quietly outside likely places. He got plenty of food, many subway sandwiches, pies, bread, and liters of soft drinks.
He only had to walk and wait for perhaps one hour, before getting more than enough for a whole day's food needs.
He did this every day for 4 months I believe, during the rains retreat.

In Australia I met a guy who was doing a similar mendicancy thing, except he didn't wear robes. He was a spiritual hippy backpacker type of guy, he never paid for food. Lived in parks, in the forest, and in friendly people's houses as a guest/housesitter/etc.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Goofaholix
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by Goofaholix »

kryptos wrote:I am not concerned about having a job, money, return ticket, travel insurance.
No doubt, my point is that immigration will be, you just won't be given a visa unless you can prove that you can support yourself and intend to leave the country when your visa expires.

No country wants another countries bum, even if it's a dhamma bum.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Zentruckdriver
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by Zentruckdriver »

Hi Kryptos,
Maybe this site can help with some ideas http://becomenomad.com/
I know its not exactly what your intending to do but we still need to
maintain a legal aspect to prove our intentions are innocent.

I have not owned a property for years and use my Mums address for
documents and so on.

Usually when I tell people that im going traveling for a couple of years
they respond with negativity but I still go and have had many happy years
on the road.

The only other thing I can think of is becoming Stateless but I have
never researched it and do not know if its applicable.

Kind Regards Paul.
Dipping a toe in or pulling myself from a swamp...yeah that covers it for now.
kryptos
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Re: Do it yourself!

Post by kryptos »

That's a good scenery, James! Thanks!
Goofaholix wrote:
kryptos wrote:I am not concerned about having a job, money, return ticket, travel insurance.
No doubt, my point is that immigration will be, you just won't be given a visa unless you can prove that you can support yourself and intend to leave the country when your visa expires.
No country wants another countries bum, even if it's a dhamma bum.
Dharma bum! LoL! Yes, I agree. I discard any possibility to go illegal. I do not want to be a burden to anyone. If living abroad, I would have to find a way to be legal and free from worries, which implies being an ordained monk. Or I could get married! :heart: Just kidding...
Zentruckdriver wrote:Hi Kryptos,
Maybe this site can help with some ideas http://becomenomad.com/
Of course it may help. :twothumbsup:
Zentruckdriver wrote: The only other thing I can think of is becoming Stateless but I have
never researched it and do not know if its applicable.
Not applicable. :rofl:
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