No affection? At all? Period?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The standards at the monastery where you ordain should be followed. After ordination you will receive instructions about the proper conduct around relatives. I recommend putting some distance between yourself and family after ordination. Write about twice a year to let them know that you're alive and well, and if you're not you can ask them for medicine. That's enough, unless they ask about the Dhamma, then you can write more often, and in more detail.
If only I could get away with that! As I have mentioned, I'll be here in Canada, only 4 hours away from home, and I will be pretty much expected to visit them several times a year, or any consent they gave me goes down the drain...
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:My personal attitudes are irrelevant to this issue,
Of course. I was just curious how someone who is ordained actually goes about this, it being my main aspiration.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:but we never did do hugs in my family — at least not since my young childhood. My father is dead, and my mother is in a care home with dementia. I am not sure if she even recognised me at my father's funeral. My sister writes occasionally, my brother sometimes sends an email, or I occasionally call to manage some business. None of my family are Buddhists, or interested in Buddhism. My brother is an active Christian, but other family members have no interest in religion AFAIK. It's not something they ever talk about.

It's worth noting that fondling the children of supporters is one of the actions included in "Corrupting families."

21 Kinds of Wrong Livelihood
I see, clearly a different dynamic and age as well. I'm still only 19, so of course it's going to be different... Thank you for sharing Bhante.

Metta, Josh.
:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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seeker242
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by seeker242 »

IMO, leaving home means...leaving home, either you do or you don't. I don't think there is a middle ground IMO
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

seeker242 wrote:IMO, leaving home means...leaving home, either you do or you don't. I don't think there is a middle ground IMO
If I could leave and be done and gone, I would. But for the time being, It's going to take some doing to get things the way I'd like them.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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James the Giant
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by James the Giant »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: It is a rule laid down by the Buddha. The Vinītavatthua is the story in the Vinaya text, not the Commentary. It gives the occasion for the rules, and the stories that later led to amendments.

The offence of wrong-doing for touching one's mother or sister out of affection comes in the Vinītavatthu for the Saṅghadisesa rule regarding touching a woman with lust. Ajahn Thanissaro's Buddhist Monastic Code says:
Intention. The Vinītavatthu contains cases of a bhikkhu who caresses his mother out of filial affection, one who caresses his daughter out of fatherly affection, and one who caresses his sister out of brotherly affection. In each case the penalty is a Dukkaṭa.
If a mother or an unrelated woman hugs a monk, there is no offence. If the monk hugs the woman, there is.
Gosh, I was quite wrong, thanks for correcting me. Looks like I need to do my research more carefully! I'll edit my comment above.
Thanks again Venerable.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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waterchan
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by waterchan »

Maybe it's a good idea to consider ordaining when it's clear that your family more or less doesn't need you any more?

If one has doubts regarding one's ability to strictly follow the Vinaya due to familial attachments, it might be a good idea to postpone ordination until those attachments have weakened. Unless you have children, the time will surely come when your parents leave you or grow ill enough to not remember you.

We can still rise pretty high through the "ranks" of the Dhamma as a layperson.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by DNS »

A (relevant) Zen story:

A mother learns her son has become the abbot of a famous monastery and she hasn't seen him since he ordained. She travels very far to go this monastery. She arrives at the entrance and asks one of the 500 monks at the monastery to see her son. The monk goes to the abbot and tells him that his mother is here to visit. The abbot remarks, "tell her I am not here at this monastery." The monk returns and tells her that her son is not here. She is insistent and demands to see her son. Again, the monk asks the abbot and pleads with him to just go and visit with his mother. The abbot refuses and and states again, "tell her I am not here at this monastery." The monk returns and tells her that her son is not here. The mother goes away crying profusely.

Later during the meditation session of the 500 monks, there are 499 monks crying and one abbot meditating.

That's a pretty graphic representation of non-attachment, but I suppose an ideal for a monk. In reality many monks do visit with their families. I remember my wife and I talking to a young monk from Sri Lanka who was about to head back to Sri Lanka for the first time in 3 years. We asked him if he had family there and if he missed them. He remarked, "oh yes, I have my parents, brothers and sisters, nephews, and nieces and miss them very much, I can't wait to see them." At the time, my wife hadn't visited with her family in over 15 years and she is an upasika, not a monastic. Monks and nuns are human though and some may not be ready for complete non-attachment.
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

David N. Snyder wrote:A (relevant) Zen story:

A mother learns her son has become the abbot of a famous monastery and she hasn't seen him since he ordained. She travels very far to go this monastery. She arrives at the entrance and asks one of the 500 monks at the monastery to see her son. The monk goes to the abbot and tells him that his mother is here to visit. The abbot remarks, "tell her I am not here at this monastery." The monk returns and tells her that her son is not here. She is insistent and demands to see her son. Again, the monk asks the abbot and pleads with him to just go and visit with his mother. The abbot refuses and and states again, "tell her I am not here at this monastery." The monk returns and tells her that her son is not here. The mother goes away crying profusely.

Later during the meditation session of the 500 monks, there are 499 monks crying and one abbot meditating.

That's a pretty graphic representation of non-attachment, but I suppose an ideal for a monk. In reality many monks do visit with their families. I remember my wife and I talking to a young monk from Sri Lanka who was about to head back to Sri Lanka for the first time in 3 years. We asked him if he had family there and if he missed them. He remarked, "oh yes, I have my parents, brothers and sisters, nephews, and nieces and miss them very much, I can't wait to see them." At the time, my wife hadn't visited with her family in over 15 years and she is an upasika, not a monastic. Monks and nuns are human though and some may not be ready for complete non-attachment.
Aha, Hello David, it's the first time one of my threads caught your attention!

Back on topic... This is becoming more difficult than I thought for reasons beyond simple renunciation. Maybe I'll need to just do my best to have my family adjust to it, but it's really difficult when nobody else is even remotely Buddhist and to them it's just, well, silly. It's unfortunate and somewhat disrespectful, but it can't be helped. :shrug:

Metta, Josh.
:anjali:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by DNS »

Kasina wrote: Aha, Hello David, it's the first time one of my threads caught your attention!
Really? Oops, sorry.

I just looked and found your "being crushed by the mind thread" and see there are some anxiety issues you have had to deal with. In that case, it might be good to take a more gradual detachment, provided of course the abbot / monastery allows it. As I mentioned, in actual practice most monks do visit with their families so I would still advise you to do so, with the permission of course of the monastery, at least for some transition period or longer.
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Kasina wrote: Aha, Hello David, it's the first time one of my threads caught your attention!
Really? Oops, sorry.

I just looked and found your "being crushed by the mind thread" and see there are some anxiety issues you have had to deal with. In that case, it might be good to take a more gradual detachment, provided of course the abbot / monastery allows it. As I mentioned, in actual practice most monks do visit with their families so I would still advise you to do so, with the permission of course of the monastery, at least for some transition period or longer.
Oh that's alright, haha. Yes, the anxiety. Hmm-hmm. Comes and goes, strangely, when I become lax in my meditation... Just being clear, this whole issue stems from my parents. I've been told they worry they'll never see me again, I'll put the monastery first, I can't touch my mother or my sister, so on, so forth. I'm not a heartless person. I mean a lot to my parents, but this kind of affection isn't important to me, hell, I've never even had romantic contact with a girl, or had a girlfriend. I just don't care, but I can't stand the thought of causing my family undue sadness and pain, but at the same time I want to be fair to myself-- I quit college for this, this is my chosen way to live.

Man...

EDIT: Yes, hopefully the abbot will be understanding (I imagine he will, he had a period of time where he left the monastery to care for his sick mother).
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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Dan74
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Dan74 »

This is a Zen story I have not heard before, David, Where did you find it?

Another one comes to mind that goes something like this (Dan's retelling):

A young monk was very ardent in his practice, refraining from befriending his fellow monks and ignoring all requests from his family to see him. Above all else, he told the abbot, he wished to see the Buddha with his own eyes that would surely be a magnificent sight and certain to assist in his practice.

'Buddhas come in all guises, the abbot told him, 'you may even see one one day dressed in nothing but a nightgown with the hair all messed up!' The abbot chuckled but the monk was left confused. After a year of strenuous practice, the monk was all but exhausted and the abbot sent him off back to his home village for a visit.

His mother heard the news that her son was on his way home and when he knocked on her door late at night, rushed out to see him in nothing but a nightgown and with her hair all messed up. Then the young monk remembered the abbot's words and embraced his mother tenderly. Tears of gratitude welled in his eyes and he sat and put his knapsack down.

PS. My 2c is that both stories have some validity. However, monk or not, one is still a human being and learning to face this fact fully (which is not an easy task) is surely going to assist liberation.
_/|\_
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waterchan
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by waterchan »

Kasina wrote:...but this kind of affection isn't important to me, hell, I've never even had romantic contact with a girl, or had a girlfriend. I just don't care...
Wow... I think that goes a very, very long way towards becoming a good monk. Sex drive is really nothing to be proud of. Wish there was an anti-libido drug I could take...
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

waterchan wrote:
Kasina wrote:...but this kind of affection isn't important to me, hell, I've never even had romantic contact with a girl, or had a girlfriend. I just don't care...
Wow... I think that goes a very, very long way towards becoming a good monk. Sex drive is really nothing to be proud of. Wish there was an anti-libido drug I could take...
Ohhhh, I have a sex drive. I just don't care about relationships. Don't care/see the point.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by DNS »

Dan74 wrote:This is a Zen story I have not heard before, David, Where did you find it?
IIRC, I heard it from Samu Sunim in Toronto, Canada during a (Kwan-Se-Um, Korean Zen) retreat he was leading.
PS. My 2c is that both stories have some validity. However, monk or not, one is still a human being and learning to face this fact fully (which is not an easy task) is surely going to assist liberation.
:thumbsup:
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Anagarika »

On the issue of contact with family after ordination, it might be useful for the candidate to really research and evaluate monasteries, and abbots. I would hate to learn that a truly skilled and devoted Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni left monastic life only because they were told they needed to forsake their families. As we have discussed the Vinaya rules here on this thread, there does seem to be some leeway on the issue of contact with family (physical and otherwise). If total renunciation is the best fit for a candidate, then WPN might be a solution, what with the isolation from family for 6 years of training. If someone wished to go forth, but needed some measure of email, phone, or the occasional visit from family (and a hug from Mom), I'm betting there are monasteries that permit this both in Asia and the west.
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Kasina
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Re: No affection? At all? Period?

Post by Kasina »

Anagarika wrote:On the issue of contact with family after ordination, it might be useful for the candidate to really research and evaluate monasteries, and abbots. I would hate to learn that a truly skilled and devoted Bhikkhu or Bhikkhuni left monastic life only because they were told they needed to forsake their families. As we have discussed the Vinaya rules here on this thread, there does seem to be some leeway on the issue of contact with family (physical and otherwise). If total renunciation is the best fit for a candidate, then WPN might be a solution, what with the isolation from family for 6 years of training. If someone wished to go forth, but needed some measure of email, phone, or the occasional visit from family (and a hug from Mom), I'm betting there are monasteries that permit this both in Asia and the west.
I will definitely be going to one in the west. I may consider going to asia when I'm older (if I'm still ordained... Touch wood!).

This, by the way, is the monastery I'm considering:

http://tisarana.ca/

Ajahn Vīradhammo is the abbot there.
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

Wilbur Mercer in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
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