If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

A place to discuss casual topics amongst spiritual friends.
soapy3
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:54 pm

If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by soapy3 »

There are authors of popular books on meditation and Buddhism that blend teachings from different types of Buddhism, theories from psychology, personal views of their teachers, and their own personal views.

Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?

Do you want helpful spiritual/psychological ideas only to come from Buddhism or a paritcular type of Buddhism?
Do you want helpful spiritual/psychological ideas to come from the suttas directly?

Is it enough for you that the idea is helpful to you and increases your happiness?

Do you care only in knowing where it comes from so you know what you are talking about?
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by mikenz66 »

Interesting question. I think that attitudes to this question revolve around whether, when examining possible suggestions, one look for consistency with the suttas, or for confirmation from the suttas (the latter being a much stronger requirement).

:anjali:
Mike
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by binocular »

soapy3 wrote:Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?

Do you care only in knowing where it comes from so you know what you are talking about?
Yes, because if I find something helpful, I feel indebted to the person whom I have heard that idea from. And I wish to repay the debt somehow.
Do you want helpful spiritual/psychological ideas only to come from Buddhism or a paritcular type of Buddhism?
That never occured to me, but for all practical intents and purposes, it is more feasible, more economical to have just one big, rich source to which to refer to, as opposed to having to hop around all the time.
Do you want helpful spiritual/psychological ideas to come from the suttas directly?
Existing scriptures do have a certain stability to them which gives them a sense of relevance and authority that a single living person usually doesn't have.
Is it enough for you that the idea is helpful to you and increases your happiness?
To answer yes to that question strikes me as rather solipsistic and ungrateful.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by culaavuso »

soapy3 wrote: Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?
One important consideration is what the goal is when using an idea. An idea that comes from a source that understands a goal and the way to achieve that goal is more likely to be effective in achieving that goal than an idea that comes from a source which lacks such understanding. It's important to understand the source of ideas so that time is not wasted investigating false ideas from sources that misunderstand the issue. The educational system is built around such a concept of providing ideas on a given subject from sources that have demonstrated some degree of proficiency in that subject.

When seeking ideas about physics it's most useful to consider ideas that come from experienced physicists. When seeking ideas about happiness it's most useful to consider ideas that come from individuals that have personally attained that degree of happiness and understand the causes of that happiness. When seeking ideas about Nibbana it's most useful to consider ideas that come from individuals who have attained Nibbana and understand the path that leads there.
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by m0rl0ck »

If it fits with what i know to be true from my expericence, makes sense and leads to good results, i dont care where it comes from.

Ok, whats the sutta qoute? :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by Kim OHara »

m0rl0ck wrote:If it fits with what i know to be true from my expericence, makes sense and leads to good results, i dont care where it comes from.

Ok, whats the sutta qoute? :)
The one about "if it leads to good results it's dhamma"?
:broke:
I don't know :embarassed: but I do know it exists.

:namaste:
Kim
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by daverupa »

Kim OHara wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:If it fits with what i know to be true from my expericence, makes sense and leads to good results, i dont care where it comes from.

Ok, whats the sutta qoute? :)
The one about "if it leads to good results it's dhamma"?
:broke:
I don't know :embarassed: but I do know it exists.

:namaste:
Kim
AN 8.53?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by culaavuso »

daverupa wrote: AN 8.53?
Probably either AN 8.53 or AN 3.65.
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 1114
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by seeker242 »

soapy3 wrote: Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?
Yes :) When first hearing an idea, I would like to know where it's coming from to know whether or not it's worth pursuing to begin with. If it comes from a person who talks wise, but acts foolishly, this matters because it shows that the person does not know what they are talking about. And it's better to listen to people who do know what they are talking about.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by SarathW »

There are four major type of happiness with many sub divisions.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zAQU8MEHnM


So depend on your goal and intelligence, you have to decide what true happiness means.
If you need the very basic happiness by material things you can listen to a motivational speaker or a financial advisor etc.
If you need the highest happiness “Nirvana” (according to Buddha) you have to be a Buddhist.
I have chosen Theravada as it gives me a clear path to Nirvana.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by Kim OHara »

seeker242 wrote:
soapy3 wrote: Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?
Yes :) When first hearing an idea, I would like to know where it's coming from to know whether or not it's worth pursuing to begin with. If it comes from a person who talks wise, but acts foolishly, this matters because it shows that the person does not know what they are talking about. And it's better to listen to people who do know what they are talking about.
:goodpost:
I agree. This is absolutely true and very important.
On the other hand, I do accept good ideas from all traditions - from Theravada to Mahayana to Christianity to academic philosophy.

:reading:
Kim
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5584
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by Kim OHara »

culaavuso wrote:
daverupa wrote: AN 8.53?
Probably either AN 8.53 or AN 3.65.
Thanks - they are both relevant but the Gotami Sutta was the one I had in mind.

:namaste:
Kim
Feathers
Posts: 262
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:14 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by Feathers »

To an extent I don't care - I am still working my way through Pema Chodron's books, despite being perfectly convinced that Theravada is the best fit for me, because I find them helpful.

However I do think some caution is needed. On the one hand, if secular meditation stuff helps people, then great, but I do think it is a journey into the mind that needs to be handled with care.

Edit to add: for clarity, I mean that the habit of divorcing meditation from its religious roots is maybe being done a little carelessly. Not necessarily by the original proponents of it, but by the time it has filtered down to a poorly-trained therapist on the ground . . .
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by Spiny Norman »

soapy3 wrote: Does it matter to you where an idea comes from?
Not really, providing that it makes sense and works. Despite an extensive search I haven't found anything that makes more sense or works better than Buddhism.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: If it helps you, do you care where it comes from?

Post by daverupa »

Maybe we should have a discussion about how to distinguish "it helps" from "I like it".

Right effort and doubt have an interesting interplay here; if someone wants to say they are helped by e.g. a wrong view (e.g. that there is a Creator deity), the response calls for a light touch with these points of Dhamma.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Post Reply