what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
I think that would fall under the category of the Mahayana understanding of upaya, at least as it sometimes is presented.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
As a small footnote, the Vedanta Hindu (does it matter if it was the convenience store clerk?) Swami Vivekananda once observed, "The mind (he meant intellect) is a good servant and a poor master." Any practicing Buddhist can attest to the usefulness of this remark.
Logic and parsing and thinking are wonderful tools. They persuade and guide. But it is well to remember that what persuades and guides and encourages is not the same as the actualized truth of matters.
So, for example, we do our best not to lie. Then, when we catch ourselves in our lies, we do our best either to correct ourselves or not repeat our mistakes. We can parse and dissect "lies" and "the truth" until the cows come home ... but still the question remains, of what truth is such argumentation an example; who is the master; and how can we expect to find a truth that is untroubled by thinkers large and small?
The Eightfold Path encourages "right (complete) meditation" among other things. I vote for that.
I may be lying, but as the old saying goes, "It takes a thief to catch a thief."
Logic and parsing and thinking are wonderful tools. They persuade and guide. But it is well to remember that what persuades and guides and encourages is not the same as the actualized truth of matters.
So, for example, we do our best not to lie. Then, when we catch ourselves in our lies, we do our best either to correct ourselves or not repeat our mistakes. We can parse and dissect "lies" and "the truth" until the cows come home ... but still the question remains, of what truth is such argumentation an example; who is the master; and how can we expect to find a truth that is untroubled by thinkers large and small?
The Eightfold Path encourages "right (complete) meditation" among other things. I vote for that.
I may be lying, but as the old saying goes, "It takes a thief to catch a thief."
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Just for a bit of clarification:
BenFive keys to right speech
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?
"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."
— AN 5.198
The danger in lying
"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."
The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25
The criteria for deciding what is worth saying
[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he does not say them.
[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he does not say them.
[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others,
he does not say them.
[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others,
he does not say them.
[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others,
he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."
— MN 58
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Hi Ben,
Thank you for posting the text of the passage from M.58. I was hoping that someone would post it . I am new to this forum stuff and have not yet figured out how to do clever things like that. Kind regards, Vincent.
Thank you for posting the text of the passage from M.58. I was hoping that someone would post it . I am new to this forum stuff and have not yet figured out how to do clever things like that. Kind regards, Vincent.
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
No problem Vincent.
You can use the controls at the top of your text editing window. The 'quote button was the one that i used to enclose the cannonical extracts in a box. Likewise the size (box that says 'normal', font colour, and bold.
I'd also like to see whether you have additional support for your contention that the Buddha did not tell the truth. And if not, whether you could quote the section from Jayatilleke so that we can discuss it.
Kind regards
Ben
You can use the controls at the top of your text editing window. The 'quote button was the one that i used to enclose the cannonical extracts in a box. Likewise the size (box that says 'normal', font colour, and bold.
I'd also like to see whether you have additional support for your contention that the Buddha did not tell the truth. And if not, whether you could quote the section from Jayatilleke so that we can discuss it.
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Hi Ben,
Thanks again but I must be very dim could you explain a bit more ?
a) Does this involve the "clipboard" on ones own computer ?
b) Where was the cannonical text , on this site , on another site , on your own system ?
c) Is there an instruction sheet somewhere on this site. Regards , Vincent.
Edit: found the faq - must be blind.
Thanks again but I must be very dim could you explain a bit more ?
a) Does this involve the "clipboard" on ones own computer ?
b) Where was the cannonical text , on this site , on another site , on your own system ?
c) Is there an instruction sheet somewhere on this site. Regards , Vincent.
Edit: found the faq - must be blind.
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Hi everyone,
Here is another angle from which to explore the question : Is everything the Buddha said true ?
If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings. Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
Would you like to see a few , I have a nice one which I could point out , Regards , Vincent.
Here is another angle from which to explore the question : Is everything the Buddha said true ?
If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings. Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
Would you like to see a few , I have a nice one which I could point out , Regards , Vincent.
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Very interesting question. I guess it worth it's own tread.vinasp wrote:If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings.
Metta.
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
One must then examine one's understanding and start from a position that one has misunderstood the teachings, a much better position to start from than assuming one peculiarity of the Dhamma is contradiction with another.vinasp wrote:Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
Indeed the whole Dhamma is not something one can understand simply from an intellectual perspective.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Let us see your evidence.vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Is anyone still following this thread ? Do you want to see this evidence ?.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Well, you're not alone in not being sure what to do...although ripping the Man will not make you too many points around here...vinasp wrote:I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Greetings vinasp,
Metta,
Retro.
I have never found any contradictions in the suttas, try as I might. This increases my confidence in them as a largely accurate record of what the Buddha taught, and in instances where they may not be word-for-word accurate, the fact they were transmitted by arahants and other noble ones who obviously "got it" means they didn't introduce any such contradictions.vinasp wrote:Have you found contradictions ?
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Well said Paul...retrofuturist wrote:I have never found any contradictions in the suttas, try as I might. This increases my confidence in them as a largely accurate record of what the Buddha taught, and in instances where they may not be word-for-word accurate, the fact they were transmitted by arahants and other noble ones who obviously "got it" means they didn't introduce any such contradictions.
A line from a monk at Suan Mokh several years ago has, for some reason, stayed with me...'It's hard to find any holes in the Teachings'...hard enough, I believe, that I've yet to hear of (or seen myself) even one...and it's definitely not for the lack of people trying...
While re-birth, Devas, planes (realms) of existence, and the like are, for me (as yet) unverifiably(sp) confirmable(sp), I don't sweat it too much...all in good time as they say...and the (more) mundane, bread and butter, stuff is pretty much ALL spot on...what other endeavor that deals with life, and what goes on in our heads, can boast of such a record as this?...
Anyway, it seems as though those looking for the 'holes' are (somewhat) lacking faith in the program...here's wishing them well finding enough to concentrate on the positive aspects of the path...santi...
Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?
Hello vinasp, all,vinasp wrote: Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Is anyone still following this thread ? Do you want to see this evidence ?
Several posters have made strong assertions of the kind : " The Buddha does not lie ". Are they just expressing their opinion, or are they telling me to shut up ? Several posters have suggested that I need to change my views . If I present this evidence are some people going to go bananas ?
Or can we have a calm rational enquiry here ? Please tell me what you think.
Please present what you think is your evidence. There are quite a few of us waiting to see what it is. Nobody is going to 'go bananas' ~ we've been on internet groups for years and nothing shocks us anymore.
Please present it ... how else will you learn except through discussion and listening to those well versed in the Dhamma?
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---