what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Jechbi
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by Jechbi »

I think that would fall under the category of the Mahayana understanding of upaya, at least as it sometimes is presented.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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genkaku
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by genkaku »

As a small footnote, the Vedanta Hindu (does it matter if it was the convenience store clerk?) Swami Vivekananda once observed, "The mind (he meant intellect) is a good servant and a poor master." Any practicing Buddhist can attest to the usefulness of this remark.

Logic and parsing and thinking are wonderful tools. They persuade and guide. But it is well to remember that what persuades and guides and encourages is not the same as the actualized truth of matters.

So, for example, we do our best not to lie. Then, when we catch ourselves in our lies, we do our best either to correct ourselves or not repeat our mistakes. We can parse and dissect "lies" and "the truth" until the cows come home ... but still the question remains, of what truth is such argumentation an example; who is the master; and how can we expect to find a truth that is untroubled by thinkers large and small?

The Eightfold Path encourages "right (complete) meditation" among other things. I vote for that.

I may be lying, but as the old saying goes, "It takes a thief to catch a thief."
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Ben
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by Ben »

Just for a bit of clarification:
Five keys to right speech
"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198

The danger in lying
"For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie."

The person who lies,
who transgress in this one thing,
transcending concern for the world beyond:
there's no evil
he might not do.
— Iti 25

The criteria for deciding what is worth saying
[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
unfactual, untrue
, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he does not say them.


[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true,
unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he does not say them.


[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true,
beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others,
he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.


[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
unfactual, untrue
, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others,
he does not say them.


[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true,
unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others,
he does not say them.


[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be
factual, true
, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others,
he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.
Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

— MN 58
Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Ben,
Thank you for posting the text of the passage from M.58. I was hoping that someone would post it . I am new to this forum stuff and have not yet figured out how to do clever things like that. Kind regards, Vincent.
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Ben
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by Ben »

No problem Vincent.
You can use the controls at the top of your text editing window. The 'quote button was the one that i used to enclose the cannonical extracts in a box. Likewise the size (box that says 'normal', font colour, and bold.

I'd also like to see whether you have additional support for your contention that the Buddha did not tell the truth. And if not, whether you could quote the section from Jayatilleke so that we can discuss it.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Ben,
Thanks again but I must be very dim could you explain a bit more ?
a) Does this involve the "clipboard" on ones own computer ?
b) Where was the cannonical text , on this site , on another site , on your own system ?
c) Is there an instruction sheet somewhere on this site. Regards , Vincent.

Edit: found the faq - must be blind.
vinasp
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,
Here is another angle from which to explore the question : Is everything the Buddha said true ?
If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings. Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
Would you like to see a few , I have a nice one which I could point out , Regards , Vincent.
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Hoja
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by Hoja »

vinasp wrote:If a student of the teachings believes that everything that the Buddha said is true , then what happens when / if he finds a contradiction in the teachings.
Very interesting question. I guess it worth it's own tread.
Metta.
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BlackBird
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by BlackBird »

vinasp wrote:Have you found contradictions ? How did you resolve the issue ?
One must then examine one's understanding and start from a position that one has misunderstood the teachings, a much better position to start from than assuming one peculiarity of the Dhamma is contradiction with another.

Indeed the whole Dhamma is not something one can understand simply from an intellectual perspective.


:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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tiltbillings
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by tiltbillings »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Is anyone still following this thread ? Do you want to see this evidence ?.
Let us see your evidence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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appicchato
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by appicchato »

vinasp wrote:I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Well, you're not alone in not being sure what to do...although ripping the Man will not make you too many points around here...
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retrofuturist
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings vinasp,
vinasp wrote:Have you found contradictions ?
I have never found any contradictions in the suttas, try as I might. This increases my confidence in them as a largely accurate record of what the Buddha taught, and in instances where they may not be word-for-word accurate, the fact they were transmitted by arahants and other noble ones who obviously "got it" means they didn't introduce any such contradictions.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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appicchato
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by appicchato »

retrofuturist wrote:I have never found any contradictions in the suttas, try as I might. This increases my confidence in them as a largely accurate record of what the Buddha taught, and in instances where they may not be word-for-word accurate, the fact they were transmitted by arahants and other noble ones who obviously "got it" means they didn't introduce any such contradictions.
Well said Paul...

A line from a monk at Suan Mokh several years ago has, for some reason, stayed with me...'It's hard to find any holes in the Teachings'...hard enough, I believe, that I've yet to hear of (or seen myself) even one...and it's definitely not for the lack of people trying...

While re-birth, Devas, planes (realms) of existence, and the like are, for me (as yet) unverifiably(sp) confirmable(sp), I don't sweat it too much...all in good time as they say...and the (more) mundane, bread and butter, stuff is pretty much ALL spot on...what other endeavor that deals with life, and what goes on in our heads, can boast of such a record as this?...

Anyway, it seems as though those looking for the 'holes' are (somewhat) lacking faith in the program...here's wishing them well finding enough to concentrate on the positive aspects of the path...santi... :smile:
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by cooran »

vinasp wrote: Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to do at this point. I have just found even stronger evidence that the Buddha tells porkies.
Is anyone still following this thread ? Do you want to see this evidence ?
Several posters have made strong assertions of the kind : " The Buddha does not lie ". Are they just expressing their opinion, or are they telling me to shut up ? Several posters have suggested that I need to change my views . If I present this evidence are some people going to go bananas ?
Or can we have a calm rational enquiry here ? Please tell me what you think.
Hello vinasp, all,

Please present what you think is your evidence. There are quite a few of us waiting to see what it is. Nobody is going to 'go bananas' ~ we've been on internet groups for years and nothing shocks us anymore.
Please present it ... how else will you learn except through discussion and listening to those well versed in the Dhamma?

metta
Chris
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Dan74
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Re: what is "esoteric buddhism"?

Post by Dan74 »

Except of course, if you are simply trolling...

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