Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts (Sujato/Brahmali)

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Unrul3r
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Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts (Sujato/Brahmali)

Post by Unrul3r »

Hello Dhamma Wheelers,

I found out a few minutes ago that Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali published their most recent book, Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, a few days ago and so I thought I'd share this with those who didn't know and are interested in it. You can find the direct link to the book here.

There is a talk on it, if you are also interested:


With metta!

:anjali:
Last edited by Unrul3r on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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waterchan
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by waterchan »

:clap: Thanks for this! That's another of Bhante Sujato's books that's going on my tablet.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
daverupa
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by daverupa »

Good news!

It's been something of a wait...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Jetavan
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Jetavan »

So, are they authentic or not? :reading:
Last edited by Jetavan on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daverupa
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by daverupa »

Jetavan wrote:Interesting that they seem date the death of the Buddha to around 400 BCE when discussing Ctesias' Indika (p. 17), but to around 470 when discussing the Mauryan Empire (p. 7).
The p.7 reference is "And from the Mauryan empire of Asoka, starting around 130 years after the Buddha..."

The p.17 reference ...does not date the Indika.

I'm not sure how you've come to make such comments...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Jetavan
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Jetavan »

daverupa wrote:
Jetavan wrote:Interesting that they seem date the death of the Buddha to around 400 BCE when discussing Ctesias' Indika (p. 17), but to around 470 when discussing the Mauryan Empire (p. 7).
The p.7 reference is "And from the Mauryan empire of Asoka, starting around 130 years after the Buddha..."

The p.17 reference ...does not date the Indika.

I'm not sure how you've come to make such comments...
I stand corrected. I misread the page 7 reference, which was to the start of Ashoka's reign (268 BCE), not the start of the Mauryan Empire itself (320 BCE).

Page 17 dates the Indika (which was written after Ctesias was taken to Persia, c. 405 BCE) to a few years after the death of the Buddha.
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mikenz66
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by mikenz66 »

Unrul3r wrote:Hello Dhamma Wheelers,

I found out a few minutes ago that Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali published their most recent book, Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, a few days ago and so I thought I'd share this with those who didn't know and are interested in it. You can find the direct link to the book here.

There is a talk on it, if you are also interested:...
Thanks. For those of us who prefer MP3s the talk is here:
http://dhammaloka.org.au/home/item/1640 ... texts.html
And the link to the book here: http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/home/item/ ... texts.html

:anjali:
Mike
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Jetavan
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Jetavan »

From the text, p. 36:
The [Early Buddhist Texts] also depict many deities and practices that are found neither
in the ancient Vedas, nor in the later Hinduism. In addition, they fail to
mention many practices common to the later Brahmanical tradition, such
as the worship of the Śiva-liṅgaṁ and deities such as Krishna,
Ganesh, Kali and Skanda.
I thought that the Ambattha Sutta mentioned Krishna ("Kanha") as a "mighty sage"?
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gavesako
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by gavesako »

The locus classicus for various deities and non-human beings mentioned in the earliest stata of the Suttas are the Mahasamaya Sutta and Atanatiya Sutta (DN). It was an assumption of "protestant" Buddhist scholars that all such references were later additions.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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Anagarika
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Anagarika »

gavesako wrote:The locus classicus for various deities and non-human beings mentioned in the earliest stata of the Suttas are the Mahasamaya Sutta and Atanatiya Sutta (DN). It was an assumption of "protestant" Buddhist scholars that all such references were later additions.
This is one area that confuses me (among many). I have not studied the Atanatiya Sutta, for example, and am not familiar with the references to deities. Do we assume, as we review the most ancient Suttas, that these references were later additions, or was there an element among the original Sangha that paid attention to deities? I am aware that there are some teachings of the Buddha that reference certain nonhuman beings, and have assumed they were part of the teaching as a metaphor, or as part of a (Vedic or Brahmanic) cultural reference. So, my question is, what relevance do these deity references have as we study the early suttas? Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?
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Unrul3r
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Unrul3r »

The video in the OP is a general overview. In the video below you can find a more in-depth presentation of the book:

alan
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by alan »

So often I hear the old "we can't know what the He really said" argument to justify picking and choosing according to personal preference from the various religions that trace their roots to the Buddha. This clear and well reasoned paper should lay that to rest once and for all.
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by binocular »

BuddhaSoup wrote:This is one area that confuses me (among many). I have not studied the Atanatiya Sutta, for example, and am not familiar with the references to deities. Do we assume, as we review the most ancient Suttas, that these references were later additions, or was there an element among the original Sangha that paid attention to deities? I am aware that there are some teachings of the Buddha that reference certain nonhuman beings, and have assumed they were part of the teaching as a metaphor, or as part of a (Vedic or Brahmanic) cultural reference. So, my question is, what relevance do these deity references have as we study the early suttas? Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?
I come from a different direction: I am puzzled as to why some people are concerned about what to do with references to deities (or giant fishes, bodiless demons etc.).
To me, references to deities have always been a non-issue; I have never had any particular belief, nor disbelief in them.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
daverupa
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by daverupa »

BuddhaSoup wrote:Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?
Why not? As discussed in the paper from the OP, their presence is largely relegated to narrative frameworks and narration generally; hardly a doctrinal issue among them.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Freelance ExBuddhist
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Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Post by Freelance ExBuddhist »

To answer the direct question ("So, are they authentic or not?") that, frankly, the video seems to dance around, but not really answer:

(1) Here's a substantive explanation in the form of a long essay (in both Chinese and English, parallel), contrasting the extant texts we've got from various traditions, and explaining that the Sutta material fom the Pali canon is, indeed, the best (extant) material we've got to work with (contrary to a lot of innuendo about Sanskrit and Chinese sources during the last hundred years, some of which seemed reasonable at an earlier stage of research, but now must be discarded).
http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.tw/2014/0 ... inese.html

(2) And, by contrast, here's a lightweight youtube video that only lasts a few minutes, and will answer the same question (without too much depth, and geared, partly, to as a reply the type of hostililty that Mahayanists frequently present, i.e., in refusing to accept that there is any historical validity to the Pali Canon):
http://youtu.be/GzOcSpxKVoA
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