Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by pilgrim »

What's the point of renunciation again?
Yes, celibacy is never easy. But his erotic adventures as a monk exceeds that of many laypeople. Although technically he did not breach his celibacy, his erotic romps, ( during vassa, I might add) is a private failure and should remain as such. At the most, he could have written about this privately to his brother monks and reflected upon with hiri and otappa, not revealed in a public blog on the Internet and worse, become a subject of praise.

This indiscretion has affected my perception of the sangha, in a negative manner.

Edited: Some things need not be said.
Last edited by pilgrim on Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

pilgrim wrote:What's the point of renunciation again?
Yes, celibacy is never easy. But his erotic adventures as a monk exceeds that of many laypeople. Although technically he did not breach his celibacy, his erotic romps, ( during vassa, I might add) is a private failure and should remain as such. At the most, he could have written about this privately to his brother monks and reflected upon with hiri and otappa, not revealed in a public blog on the Internet and worse, become a subject of praise.

This indiscretion has affected my perception of the sangha, particularly "farang" monks, in a negative manner.


I have had bouts of STRICT celibacy (no touching myself, no masturbation, no porn, no fantasy while half sleeping or awake,no touching, fondling kissing sexing a random girl/girlfriend/prostitute, and surprisingly no wet dreams either because of three rounds of Maha Bandha everyday)...Believe me if one keeps at it for a month or two like this ..it feels like as if a big Ferrari Formula 1 Engine is revving up below the Abdomen...Its then YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING to dissipate it, or you may soon lose it through a sexual slip-up...You either work out, or put extra energy into studies or meditate or if you are an adventurous type--go out picking up girls .....,,,but once you lose it, you keep losing it after a every few days for the next several months before you recall back that humongous will-power


But anybody who is in the celibacy game, knows that you will attract more than your fair share of female attention..It's as if women have a bat sense to pic out guys who are trying to hang on to celibacy (IT IS THE TOUGHEST THING IN THE WORLD--Anybody who says otherwise is lying or has no idea what he is talking about).....So every Vishwamitra will have his Menaka who although may have been the most compassionate celestial-nymph ever, was ultimately an obstacle in the spiritual ascendancy


It seems Buddhist monks get lost in the maze of legalities....and celibacy though given a very high place , arguably not the highest place

In Hinduism celibacy is the Pinnacle of All Achievement....So it's seen more as gaining spiritual superpower rather than giving up sex


These two links perhaps have had the most influence on my spiritual life:

http://gopal4mission.wordpress.com/2009 ... ya-quotes/

http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahmacharya.htm
User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Viscid »

cooran wrote:Hello all,

If an ordained monk expresses contempt for one third of the Tipitaka, shouldn't he disrobe or be disrobed?

With metta,
Chris
Many monks (such as Nanavira Thera) aren't/weren't terribly fond of Abhidhamma. It would be silly to have dogmatism as a requirement for being a monk.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5614
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by robertk »

pilgrim wrote:What's the point of renunciation again?
Yes, celibacy is never easy. But his erotic adventures as a monk exceeds that of many laypeople. Although technically he did not breach his celibacy, his erotic romps, ( during vassa, I might add) is a private failure and should remain as such. At the most, he could have written about this privately to his brother monks and reflected upon with hiri and otappa, not revealed in a public blog on the Internet and worse, become a subject of praise.

This indiscretion has affected my perception of the sangha, particularly "farang" monks, in a negative manner.
Hmm have you met many monks in Burma or Thailand. I would estimate over 90 % use money without any qualms as just one example of non-farang monks having little respect for vinaya.
So why do you feel distressed about one monk who openly admits his faults.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by cooran »

If lay people expected the Bhikkhus to strictly Observe the Vinaya , and did not give Dana to those who didn't, there may be changes.

Thank goodness that the monks I have known at Dhammagiri Forest Hermitage have been virtuous and strict about their observance - and expected the lay community to be as observant of the five and eight precepts, not just go through the motions.

The Forest Sangha Bhikkhus at Dhammagiri will not speak alone with women - another male must be present -this prevents gossip and any wrong-doing.

I have much respect for them.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Sokehi
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Sokehi »

I certainly appreciate his honesty, he is a very good writer too. But the way he tried to find cracks within the vinaya to watch at pornography (especially... strange to say the least on computers he doesn't own) to express his very special fondness to the priestess incl. getting undressed, touching etc. etc. is irritating to say the least. If he were a layaman I'd say well done. Experimenting with ones lust, trying to find new ways of becoming friends with women on a deeper "spiritual" level... but as a monk he is the heir of a very long tradition and should be not only careful but strict in his observance. He was constantly putting down his fortification of the vinaya with trying to stay within the allowable. I guess trying to be clever in playing around with the vinaya to find ways to be a bit more easy going with ones conduct is shameless.

As Ajahn Jayasaro said: the Vinaya and even the most minor rules are like concentric rings of an inner fortification. If you keep the minor rules strict the most major rules would be kept easier if even tested.

Some things shouldn't become public too. In german we call it "Bärendienst" when one causes damage to something. He is honest and that in itself is great, but has he been asked to spread it to the WWW? Discuss it with fellow Bhikkus, very close Layfriends or Familymembers. For some people who are not as understanding or coming from a more informed background this testimony is another proof that something is really wrong with celibate monks (or nuns). That he violated the trust of the boyfriend by watching porn and being thrown out of the shelter is a saddening event. This man surely will most probably never ever again trust a buddhist monk.

The damage done to the buddhasasana can't be evaluated. But even the slightest scratch that a celibate monk causes especially when public attention is given is a desaster.
Although, as I say, I feel no real remorse, I am concerned that my behavior, and my subsequent writing about it, may harm the reputation of the Bhikkhu Sangha, an institution to which I am very much indebted. If so, I sincerely apologize for that.
Indebted indeed. If ... then he apologizes. Why not do all this in the first place or at least keep it for himself, learn skillfully out of this for ones own benefit in practicing a celibate renunciate lifestyle? No he writes publicly about it - why does he needs to? what drives him to make it public? - and risks all the possible outcome out of it. If he would really feel indebted and would be really concerned about the reputation he wouldn't have done it in the first place.

In some places ordaining is as easy as disrobing. Monk in a day. So if any monk feels the urge to engage in some tantric adventures like he did he should follow the advice of that canadian monk: disrobe, do what you think you need to do and if you've gained that oh so valuable experience ordain again - or become a good respectable lay person. Every monk who disrobes deserves respect since he honestly noticed he can't live that life. This I call being truly honest.

I don't think Theravada Buddhism needs millions of monks. A few good ones are good enough.

This story makes me feel even moreso confident that the practice for example of the western Ajahn Chah Sangha of the threefold training (Anagarika - Samanera - Bhikkhu) is best for many. Check out the lifestyle, the rules, bit by bit until you can make a decision based on experience.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone here.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by pilgrim »

Good post.. :clap:
Sokehi wrote: Why not do all this in the first place or at least keep it for himself, learn skillfully out of this for ones own benefit in practicing a celibate renunciate lifestyle? No he writes publicly about it - why does he needs to?
Perhaps he enjoys the reputation of being an "honest" monk. In another post he writes about his experimentation with psychotropic substances at a religious ceremony and then when queried about it in the Comments section, he dismisses the breach of rule as no more serious than a monk opening a door while holding a bowl. He may be technically correct, but it tells a lot about the way he relates to the rules.
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by gavesako »

Someone's comments on this case which are spot-on:

This is typical American, i.e. making a public confession and repentance. Famous people such as Lance Armstrong who have done something shameful go on the Ophrah Whitney show and tearfully confess and repent. (See e.g. http://thecripplegate.com/its-just-oprah-not-metanoia/ and http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=4617) Americans, with their strong Protestant roots, love the public display, and forgive. The sinner can then make a new start, and when he crawls back up again to the top, fulfilling the American Dream, Americans love it even more. God's forgiveness has worked, and the former sinner is saved and becomes an American hero again through hard work.

See Susan Wise Bauer, The Art of the Public Grovel: Sexual Sin and Public Confession in America,
Princeton and Oxford: Princeton University Press, 2008

I have mixed feelings about Ven. Panyobhasa's confessions. I don't know him but it seems that he finds himself very clever, but his cleverness, as often happens with clever people, turns into cunningness and it seems to me that he is deceiving himself and others.

Although I referred to the American habit of publicly confessing one's sins and repenting, there is something more going on too, i.e. that the distinction between private life and public life is increasingly fading away. All aspects of one's life, which before the rise of internet and reality TV would have been private and limited to one's immediate community, are now shared globally.

Ven. Paññobhasa would certainly be an interesting guest for Oprah: “American forest monk who sinned after returning to America repents: 'My love affair with her was the happiest time of my life, but I now see the suffering of it!'.”

The Sangha is to be a moral example, and a monk such as Panyobhasa writing about sleeping with a woman without actually falling into Parajika, however courageous , authentic and interesting it might appear, makes many people lose their faith and could be used by those opposed to the Sangha such as Christian missionaries or those nationalists in the Sangha who don't like Western monks. According to the Vinaya, offences are to be confessed within the Sangha, not to lay people. To expose the Sanghadisesa offence of another monk to a lay person is a pacittiya offence. One could argue, by extension, that to expose one's own Sanghadisesa offence to laypeople is an offence too.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Mkoll »

pilgrim wrote:Good post.. :clap:
Sokehi wrote: Why not do all this in the first place or at least keep it for himself, learn skillfully out of this for ones own benefit in practicing a celibate renunciate lifestyle? No he writes publicly about it - why does he needs to?
Perhaps he enjoys the reputation of being an "honest" monk. In another post he writes about his experimentation with psychotropic substances at a religious ceremony and then when queried about it in the Comments section, he dismisses the breach of rule as no more serious than a monk opening a door while holding a bowl. He may be technically correct, but it tells a lot about the way he relates to the rules.
It doesn't get much more intense and crazy than ayahuasca in my experience. A Buddhist monk who's willing to try such mind-blowing substances is not a good role model.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Shaswata_Panja
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Shaswata_Panja »

To be frank though Buddhist monasticism is against drug use, Hindu monasticism (at least the Yoga Sutras) are not..May be with his getting inspired from Hinduism has a lot to do with Ayahuasca experience

I find the breakage of celibacy as serious a offence perhaps more serious than the acid trip

I am beginning to wonder whether it is even possible to be sexually continent for a considerable amount of time (like several years without an orgasm/emission in the waking state)

Do monks EVER get rid of the sexual desire? There was this story on BuddhistGeeks about a very strict and earnest 92 year old Thai monk whose mind would frequently wander towards sex (if it ever wandered off at all)

and mind you Bhikkhu Pannobhaso was very heoric in his practice..he spent 18 years in the forest..for a year he never entered any building..alone in the forest battling ghosts! he said the meditation had become kind of like trench warfare----Nobody can convict him for his lack of earnestness...it seems however which way he tried to kill the sex monster, it came back


What is the average duration of celibacy streak that serious monks manage to achieve on a regular basis? (1 month? 2 months? 6 months? 1 year? 3 years? b4 another waking state orgasm/emission)



The Sangha in Bhutan is less hyprocritical though the "thigh sex" of elderly monks with young boys is kind of rampant there..The Government has started distributing condoms to the monks

Unbroken Waking State Celibacy is the defining factor of any monastic order....


It seems whichever religious order it might be, monks have been failing heavily to stic to celibacy the past 100 years?

Was the Prophet of Islam right then? Is celibacy unnatural? Questions Questions I have in my mind......and this is because I am an aspiring celibate (though not an aspiring monk)
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by cooran »

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Boris
Posts: 770
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Boris »

Shaswata_Panja wrote: Questions Questions I have in my mind......and this is because I am an aspiring celibate (though not an aspiring monk)
Good! :smile: Sensual desire is just mental sickness very hard to remove and only non-returners and arahats rooted it out, although some persons may temporally be free from sensual desire not being in fact non-returners.

Below non-returner it is like AA idea - where one's should keep in mind "I am an alcoholic". Reduction of sleep, reduction of food, contemplation of body's ugliness help a lot and make celibacy quite easy in the most cases. But the fundamental rule is:
Avoid casual association with members of the opposite sex. Never be socially alone with a member of the opposite sex. This is an absolute. Make no exceptions based on seemingly spiritual character, age, or intention. When an older woman tells you that she is your “mother” run away! The same thing applies when a man tells a woman that he is her “father.” This goes on in both India and America, including close–and private–association of men with female gurus and of women with male gurus. No one knows what impulses carried over from previous lives–many even from centuries past–are lying not far beneath the surface of the conscious mind, waiting to manifest. “Spiritual” friendships with members of the opposite sex are doors to disaster. I have seen it over and over. Even in my early teen years I watched “spiritual” associations inevitably turn into sexual associations. And that had usually been the intention from the first moment. If what I have said does not convince you, at least I have discharged my responsibility.
http://www.ocoy.org/original-yoga/twelv ... hmacharya/
"Lord, how are we to treat women?"
"Do not see them, Ananda."
"Lord, if they are seen, how should we treat them?"
"Do not address them, Ananda."
"Lord, if we do address them, how should we treat them?"
"Mindfulness should be maintained, Ananda."
D 16
Shaswata_Panja wrote: and mind you Bhikkhu Pannobhaso was very heoric in his practice..he spent 18 years in the forest..for a year he never entered any building..alone in the forest battling ghosts! he said the meditation had become kind of like trench warfare----Nobody can convict him for his lack of earnestness..
Well, I would say that there is nothing heroic in living in the forest, it is rather more pleasant then heroic :smile: It could be also very supportive to wisdom, but it seems it was not helpful for Ven B.P. Forest rangers also are known as forest dwellers :smile:
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
User avatar
rowboat
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:31 am
Location: Brentwood Bay

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by rowboat »

Ven. Gavesako: Although I referred to the American habit of publicly confessing one's sins and repenting, there is something more going on too, i.e. that the distinction between private life and public life is increasingly fading away. All aspects of one's life, which before the rise of internet and reality TV would have been private and limited to one's immediate community, are now shared globally.
Hello, bhante. See contemporary German-Korean philosopher Byung-Chul Han. From his Transparency Society - original title Transparenzgesellschaft: The imperative of transparency makes us slaves to visibility. A transparent society is a pornographic society, an exhibited society.

I've talked with Ven. Paññobhāsa and there is no doubt he is of a certain type. But he is very earnest, and I believe he has seen the other side of the problem.

“All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” - ― Blaise Pascal
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 931
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Viscid »

Paññobhāsa is back in the United States after spending a year and a half in Myanmar, and is now looking to organize a group of 'serious' spiritual practitioners (whom he unfortunately calls 'Dharma Samurai--' a term liable to attract inflated egos.)

http://thebahiyablog.blogspot.ca/2015/0 ... lenge.html;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's an intriguing character, who shouldn't be hastily dismissed on the grounds of his past indiscretions and lack of absolute adherence to tradition.

Also an interesting recent article he wrote, on Nirvana being 'Ultimate Reality,' which is guaranteed to make an orthodox Theravadin's brain boil:

http://thebahiyablog.blogspot.ca/2015/0 ... eresy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Paññobhāsa Bhikkhu's Blog

Post by Zom »

Also an interesting recent article he wrote, on Nirvana being 'Ultimate Reality,' which is guaranteed to make an orthodox Theravadin's brain boil:
Why boil? What is described there is simple eternalism, as usual.

When people say things like this: "Theravada leans more than most systems toward the mistake of "isn't" although, probably wisely, the traditional position on the subject is rather ambivalent. There is enough "isn't," however, that some, especially Western intellectuals, choose to interpret Nirvana simply as "extinction," as mere non-existence" - I ask them in return: "What is BAD in extiction?" And they can't answer, they indeed start to "wriggling like an eel". Why so? Because of "craving to be", which they do not want to admit. No craving - no problem with extinction. Craving - problem with extinction. Just that simple, and together with that, so hard to accept. Why again? Again because of enormously poweful underlying tendency called "craving to be".
Last edited by Zom on Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Post Reply