Do most westerners, once ordained, stay in them?
With Metta
Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
I don't have any statistics regarding numbers, but a very senior western monk, in response to my interest at the time, once said, "oh, it's very easy to ordain; it's just difficult to stay". My guess would be that this maxim would apply to anyone who really applied themselves to the monastic life, though. Not just us pampered western folk.brandwach wrote:Do most westerners, once ordained, stay in them?
With Metta
Metta
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
Someone once made a statistic and the survival rate in each generation of monastics is not big. There are some who disrobe in the first couple of years, then some more disrobe after the first five years due to disillusionment, then others after about 10 years when they are not sure how to be a senior monk, and still others disrobe after 20-30 years due to the strains of having been a senior monk.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
That must be true of a percentage of non-westerner monks, too.gavesako wrote:Someone once made a statistic and the survival rate in each generation of monastics is not big. There are some who disrobe in the first couple of years, then some more disrobe after the first five years due to disillusionment, then others after about 10 years when they are not sure how to be a senior monk, and still others disrobe after 20-30 years due to the strains of having been a senior monk.
Kim
Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
Yes, but the statistic would look different due to other social pressures: most young boys and men in Thailand will ordain just temporarily to make merit for their parents, and they may stay on in robes longer as long as it suits them, but when they face some problems they can easily disrobe. Then there are those who become monks mainly just to study and get a degree. Some of them will later become Dhammaduta missionary monks going abroad, which presents its own challenges and many temptations to lead them out of the robes. Those who become senior monks and abbots will be encouraged to stay on due to the prestige and social recognition that such a role brings.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
would you bhante guess out of your own experience in western monasteries that those temptations for senior monks you've mentioned (prestige etc.) are lower here ("the west") than they are in the classic theravadin countries? Thinking about that the sangha as being established in the west now could become a cleansing force for the sangha as a whole so to speak to samsaric temptations and power games / scandals that recently came to our knowledge especially within the thai sangha?
Get the wanting out of waiting
What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2
If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko
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What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2
If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko
https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
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Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
Mmmm...not really, samsaric temptations and power games are human traits, and will continue to be...in addition, the Orient, generally speaking, in relation to Buddhism, only disdainfully tolerates the Occident, that's about the extent of their participation...
Re: Do most westerners that ordain stay in Robes?
For one thing, senior western monks living in the West seem to receive more criticism than praise from people in the society around them. There is no long-established tradition to fall back on, one's own family might not be particularly supportive, and even other western monks are usually more critically-minded rather than devotional as is the case in Asia. This makes the abbot's role a rather unpopular one despite some sort of status that it brings. So I would not see this as a problem.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations