Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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phil
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by phil »

I remember hearing Bhikkhu Bodhi rave (well, as close as he would go to raving) about this book at the beginning of his talk on MN10 and wanted to read it. Thanks for the reminder.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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IanAnd
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by IanAnd »

gabrielbranbury wrote: [This book] leaves good questions to explore in practice and it clarifies at the same time. I found that Analyos definition of Satipattana as attending with mindfulness rather than making your experience an "Object of mindfulness" a subtly helpful distinction. (emphasis added)
Yes. You are quite right. The amount of subtle differences that Analayo points out in the book is extremely gratifying and illuminating to practitioners who know and understand what he is talking about. Yet, it does take some experience with the subtleties of practice to fully appreciate the insight provided by the book.

But sometimes, even Analayo doesn't go far enough. This is not said to fault him, but to point out that when something like this is written down and published when the practitioner is still himself developing the practice, that often it can be a sign of where the writer himself is at within the parameters of his own practice. I have experienced this phenomenon myself on occasion, often wishing I could take back some of the things I expressed. Sometimes, established doctrinal points can get in the way of really understanding the full scope of what is possible using the mental practices of meditation and contemplation in one's practice of arriving at an awakening experience of the Dhamma. One example of this can be seen on page 78 of the English version of the book:
Analayo wrote:These passages support an understanding of the first absorption as a deeply absorbed state of mind, beyond mere reflection and conceptual thought. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that, as absorption-factors, initial mental application (vitakka) and sustained mental application (vicara) do not imply full-fledged thinking activity. Rather, they refer to the initial and sustained application of attention. Such application of attention can also take place in the domain of thought or verbal communication, when initial mental application directs the mind toward what is to be thought or said, while sustained mental application maintains the coherence of a particular sequence of thoughts or words. In the context of absorption, however, this same activity is nothing more than an intentional deployment of attention, directed towards the object of concentration....

This way of understanding can also be applied to the passages mentioned above, which at first sight seemed to suggest that conceptual thought continues in the first stage of absorption, since they spoke of the "cessation of wholesome intentions" on attaining the second absorption, a state of "noble silence". Although initial mental application as a factor of the first absorption is different from discursive thought, initial mental application is nonetheless in this context a kind of "intention" and thereby involves a very subtle degree of deliberate mental activity. Only on entering the second absorption, when this last vestige of mental activity is abandoned and concentration has become fully stable, does the mind reach a state of complete inner stillness ("noble silence"), leaving behind even these subtle "wholesome intentions".
While this explanation is correct within the context that Analayo is outlining for someone in the beginning stages of absorption practice, wherein the inexperienced practitioner is still learning about how properly to enter the absorption state, it can leave a misguided impression in the mind that all such attempts at entering absorption must be accomplished in this same manner. For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice. But this is an advanced concept for most beginning practitioners in absorption, and is best covered after the practitioner has gained some proficiency in his practice of being able to enter, "at will," absorption.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Ben
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Ben »

Hi ian
For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice. But this is an advanced concept for most beginning practitioners in absorption, and is best covered after the practitioner has gained some proficiency in his practice of being able to enter, "at will," absorption.
I had the distinct impression that Venerable was alluding to this further on, from "the contribution of absorption to the progress of insight" and following (p. 85 to the end of the chapter). For those who do not have a copy, Bhante's position is best summed up by his observation on p. 88:
The central point that emerges when considering the relationship between calm and insight is the need for balance. Since a concentrated mind supports the development of insight, and the presence of wisdom in turn facilitates the development of deeper levels of concentration, calm (samatha)
and insight (vipassana) are at best when developed in skilfull cooperation.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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IanAnd
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by IanAnd »

Ben wrote:Hi ian
For instance, I have learned, through surprising experience, that one can enter absorption and maintain it while simultaneously contemplating on a subject in order to gain insight. Some have called this ability a "vipassana jhana," meaning to imply that insight contemplation can indeed take place within the parameters of jhana practice...
I had the distinct impression that Venerable was alluding to this further on, from "the contribution of absorption to the progress of insight" and following (p. 85 to the end of the chapter). For those who do not have a copy, Bhante's position is best summed up by his observation on p. 88:
The central point that emerges when considering the relationship between calm and insight is the need for balance. Since a concentrated mind supports the development of insight, and the presence of wisdom in turn facilitates the development of deeper levels of concentration, calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana) are at best when developed in skilfull cooperation.
kind regards

Ben
Hi Ben,

Congratulations, Ben. That's quite correct, if you are able to pick up on that later comment and extrapolate back to the earlier comment and come up with that insight, then you're doing well indeed. :twothumbsup: It's nice to hear it now and again coming from a monastic practitioner.

I was only attempting to provide a more substantive post to the one which Tilt had provided to "bump" the thread. Apparently that "bump" post he added has been removed! Tally ho...onward and upward. The rewards of reading and contemplating Analayo's book are seemingly endless.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Ben
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Ben »

No problems Ian
Your contributions are of great interest to me. Thank you for participating in this discussion.
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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mettafuture
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by mettafuture »

bodom wrote:This is the most in depth commentary on this sutta available in the english language. This might be the best most in depth commentary on any sutta for that matter. I have read this book a half dozen times and find new insights every time i pick it up.
I completely agree.

To those considering this book, I highly recommend you read it with patience. It's a very detailed commentary, and if you try to rush through it, you might not be able to focus on everything that's being said, or you might lose interest, etc.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Babadhari »

mettafuture wrote:
bodom wrote:This is the most in depth commentary on this sutta available in the english language. This might be the best most in depth commentary on any sutta for that matter. I have read this book a half dozen times and find new insights every time i pick it up.
I completely agree.

To those considering this book, I highly recommend you read it with patience. It's a very detailed commentary, and if you try to rush through it, you might not be able to focus on everything that's being said, or you might lose interest, etc.

i just heard downloaded the book at this link
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ctPath.pdf

though it contains so much detail, it is written in the clearest style i have come across.whereas some commentaries on the Satipathanna Sutta bewilder and confuse me this allows me to reflect upon points as i read. think i'll order it from Amazon
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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