Buddhism and developments of science.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by SarathW »

What Buddha taught was how to be a happy person with stages until you attain the highest happiness Nirvana.
The question you have to ask is whether westerners are happier than the Easterners.

The problem is there is lot of misinformed Buddhist in the east.
Most of the eastners I know think that everything is happned due to Kamma.
So they do nothing.
It is not Buddha’s fault.

It is no different to Christians.
There is lot of misinformed Christians.

But please do not forget that most of the discoveries such as paper, pen, gunpowder etc discovered in China.
The initial concept of the rocket came from the china.
Hindus discovered the most important number zero.
Chinese empire was much bigger than any empire of the west!

:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
suttametta
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by suttametta »

Sovietnik wrote:As I am a pan-European patriot and also an admirer of Buddhism, I got one question that has been baffling me for a long time.

As we know, the civilization that is the most advanced in terms of science is the Western civilization. For the last 500-600 years we have been at the forefront of just about every field of human knowledge imaginable - science, technology, arts and political theory. At no point in human history has any civilization achieved such a great advantage over all others, initiating an explosion of knowledge.

Historians are still confused about why such a revolution took place in Europe and not elsewhere, even though before 16th century all of them were equal and had their own basis of knowledge to start their own scientific revolution.

Now my question is related specifically to Buddhism - what is the stance of Buddhists towards the scientific inquiry about the nature of the world? As scientific method requires some specific philosophical stance to be invented, not all cultures may be able to invent it and make the use of it. Buddhism for example is universal and has a solid and very simple moral framework, but many people have found it to be very passive, almost fatalistic.

I've read claims that modern science could have never developed in a society based on Buddhism. In Christianity for example, the world was created by a rational, orderly being so it is orderly and can be explored. There is also a divine command to inquire about the world and make it a better place. On the other hand, many people think that Buddhism views the world as an inherently evil place and also as a kind of illusion. To make scientific discoveries, you must first assume that the world is real.

What do you think? I'm not talking about science in Buddhist texts (no religious text has any science in it) but about the very mindset that is needed for scientific method to develop. So far I haven't found any indigenously Buddhist scientific tradition. Science in India was done by Hindus and Jains and Chinese scholars were more inspired by Taoism.
Not so. Only the most populous. Egypt was more high tech. We have no idea how they did what they did. The scientific method was developed to serve the rulership. High tech is only military tech. Everyday people are only benefitted indirectly. Life isn't better. In Buddhas time folks lives were just as long. We haven't eradicated disease. We die of more diseases than ever. We have exchanged the suffering of physical inconvenience for psychological suffering. Buddhist meditation is an inner science that eradicates disease and suffering. Egypt had tech the helped all their people. We have tech that helps selective people. Now folks are pursuing trans humanism. It's aberrant. Western science is connected with alchemy and all that philosophical bullshit. The pursuit of physical knowledge was and always will be connected with those that seek to dominate others and pursue eternal life for themselves.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Sovietnik wrote:Tell me more. What exactly was Japanese math like?
I'm not very well informed. But, afaik, they didn't invent calculus. Their math served a religious purpose _ shinto, I think. The created complex geometric puzzles which, when solved, where offered to the temples.

You can probably find good information on the internet on this. It was a trendy topic about 6 months ago, iirc.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Mkoll
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Mkoll »

suttametta wrote: We have exchanged the suffering of physical inconvenience for psychological suffering.
People in wealthy nations have access to the Buddha's teachings. And if they follow them they can have less physical inconvenience and less psychological suffering. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, much of the world doesn't even have access to potable water, much less the Buddha's teachings, so we've got a long way to go in that respect.

Anyway, psychological suffering has existed for a long time. The Buddha did teach successfully 2500 years ago, after all.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
binocular
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by binocular »

Sovietnik wrote:I've read claims that modern science could have never developed in a society based on Buddhism.
I think that even just the consideration for the possibility of karma and rebirth can take the wind out of the sails of worldly endeavors.

In the classic Milan Kundera's "The unbearable lightness of being", there is (not far into the book) a reflection on how a belief in rebirth/reincarnation would stop people from doing many of the things they do. The consideration that the devastation in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki could happen over and over again once set in motion, would deter people from doing it in the first place. A one-lifetime conception makes possible and justifies endeavors that would seem futile or morally reprehensible in a multiple-lives conception.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Aloka
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Aloka »

Sovietnik wrote:Can someone write more about Nalanda University? .......and what was taught?
There's something about what was taught at the bottom of the page at the link:

http://nalanda.bih.nic.in/nalandaHeritage.htm

Naropa (born 1016 AD), one of the founders of the Tibetan Buddhist Kagyu lineage, is also said to have been a professor at Nalanda University.

http://www.dharmafellowship.org/biograp ... naropa.htm


:anjali:
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Sovietnik
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Sovietnik »

I wonder how would a synthesis of Buddhism with Aristotle's empiricism look like?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle
binocular
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by binocular »

Sovietnik wrote:I wonder how would a synthesis of Buddhism with Aristotle's empiricism look like?
Why would anyone want to synthesize the two?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Sovietnik
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Sovietnik »

Nowdays, no one. But in the past Christians and Muslims used to mix their own religions with Greek philosophy. The effect were Averroism and Thomism which still remains an official philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church.
suttametta
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by suttametta »

Mkoll wrote:
suttametta wrote: We have exchanged the suffering of physical inconvenience for psychological suffering.
People in wealthy nations have access to the Buddha's teachings. And if they follow them they can have less physical inconvenience and less psychological suffering. :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, much of the world doesn't even have access to potable water, much less the Buddha's teachings, so we've got a long way to go in that respect.

Anyway, psychological suffering has existed for a long time. The Buddha did teach successfully 2500 years ago, after all.

:anjali:
Maslow's laws apply here. But in Tibet, folks have little on meager little, but they were very happy due to the teachings of buddha.
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Aloka
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Aloka »

suttametta wrote:
But in Tibet, folks have little on meager little, but they were very happy due to the teachings of buddha.
Not if you look at the history of Tibet. I also have a book of photos taken between 1880 and 1950 and there were huge differences between the rich and the poor, there were beggars and there were horrible punishments for crime. It was probably similar to medieval Europe.

There were also vicious squabbles and intrigues between and in the different schools of Buddhism from time to time. An echo of that can be see in in modern times with the Shugden and Karmapa controversies. I don't think it was all the romantic "Shangri La" that some westerners think it was.

.
suttametta
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by suttametta »

Aloka wrote:
suttametta wrote:
But in Tibet, folks have little on meager little, but they were very happy due to the teachings of buddha.
Not if you look at the history of Tibet. I also have a book of photos taken between 1880 and 1950 and there were huge differences between the rich and the poor, there were beggars and there were horrible punishments for crime. It was probably similar to medieval Europe.

There were also vicious squabbles and intrigues between and in the different schools of Buddhism from time to time. An echo of that can be see in in modern times with the Shugden and Karmapa controversies. I don't think it was all the romantic "Shangri La" that some westerners think it was.

.
Obviously, it was a place of humans. All these things you mention pale in comparison to what modernity did to them. I have been to their impoverished camps in India. Despite their poverty, they never complain. They effuse welcome and love. They share and give gifts. They are bright and forthcoming. They never stop smiling. They laugh and joke. Even my teacher was placed in a barn by Chinese with hundreds of people, naked and muddy, people died pressed up next to him, rotted and shitting, maggots growing out. People would disappear in the middle of the night. They had to March starving in snow, people dropping dead and losing their toes and fingers. They had to carry the bodies themselves over mountains. Their suffering is exactly a holocaust. Millions of Tibetans were killed. And now they are almost like the native Americans, nearly extinct. Yet, they smile, joke, laugh and show more reverence than ever for Buddha, dharma and sangha. They say their lives were simple, no education, and many hardships to even gather salt, but they took everyday to be an expression of dharma and they were happy. Anyway what do you think is the path to shangrila? It is through a dense thorny thicket, leaches dropping like rain, up a cliff face, to... Exactly where you are. That is the Tibetan way.
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Aloka
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by Aloka »

suttametta wrote: Obviously, it was a place of humans. All these things you mention pale in comparison to what modernity did to them. I have been to their impoverished camps in India. Despite their poverty, they never complain. They effuse welcome and love. They share and give gifts. They are bright and forthcoming. They never stop smiling. They laugh and joke. Even my teacher was placed in a barn by Chinese with hundreds of people, naked and muddy, people died pressed up next to him, rotted and shitting, maggots growing out. People would disappear in the middle of the night. They had to March starving in snow, people dropping dead and losing their toes and fingers. They had to carry the bodies themselves over mountains. Their suffering is exactly a holocaust. Millions of Tibetans were killed. And now they are almost like the native Americans, nearly extinct. Yet, they smile, joke, laugh and show more reverence than ever for Buddha, dharma and sangha. They say their lives were simple, no education, and many hardships to even gather salt, but they took everyday to be an expression of dharma and they were happy. .
I already know what happened to a lot of them and the conditions that some of the Tibetans who are now in the west lived through when they escaped over the Himalayas, because a couple of Tibetan friends have talked to me about it. However I was refering to life in Tibet before the communist take-over.
Anyway what do you think is the path to shangrila? It is through a dense thorny thicket, leaches dropping like rain, up a cliff face, to... Exactly where you are. That is the Tibetan way


Shangri-la is a mythical kingdom from a novel called "Lost Horizon."

End of conversation for me now, thanks suttametta. The topic is about Buddhism and science and I guess we should remember that this is Dhamma Wheel Theravada forum and not its sister website Dharma Wheel Mahayana/Vajrayana forum.

:anjali:
whynotme
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by whynotme »

Sovietnik wrote:As I am a pan-European patriot and also an admirer of Buddhism, I got one question that has been baffling me for a long time.

As we know, the civilization that is the most advanced in terms of science is the Western civilization. For the last 500-600 years we have been at the forefront of just about every field of human knowledge imaginable - science, technology, arts and political theory. At no point in human history has any civilization achieved such a great advantage over all others, initiating an explosion of knowledge.

Historians are still confused about why such a revolution took place in Europe and not elsewhere, even though before 16th century all of them were equal and had their own basis of knowledge to start their own scientific revolution.

Now my question is related specifically to Buddhism - what is the stance of Buddhists towards the scientific inquiry about the nature of the world? As scientific method requires some specific philosophical stance to be invented, not all cultures may be able to invent it and make the use of it. Buddhism for example is universal and has a solid and very simple moral framework, but many people have found it to be very passive, almost fatalistic.

I've read claims that modern science could have never developed in a society based on Buddhism. In Christianity for example, the world was created by a rational, orderly being so it is orderly and can be explored. There is also a divine command to inquire about the world and make it a better place. On the other hand, many people think that Buddhism views the world as an inherently evil place and also as a kind of illusion. To make scientific discoveries, you must first assume that the world is real.

What do you think? I'm not talking about science in Buddhist texts (no religious text has any science in it) but about the very mindset that is needed for scientific method to develop. So far I haven't found any indigenously Buddhist scientific tradition. Science in India was done by Hindus and Jains and Chinese scholars were more inspired by Taoism.
Welcome,

Your question is very intelligent, but you made a mistake that most Westerners made.

Now, let assume that the West was the root of modern science. The mistake is that you assume that if something was born with it, it is the best to grow with it. For example, if a mother gives birth to a child, she is the best one to grow it up. Totally wrong, the child needs the teaching of the teacher, or else will be grow up as a dumb person.

I will give you another example, many great inventions, TV shows, programs were born outside US, but US market is the best place to make profit, based on inventions from Asia, Europe,..

So what? Christian society may be where the modern science were born, (it is history, not a logical cause and effect) but it may be not the best place to help science to reach it peak. Let face it, based on science and technology, the world changed dramatically, but there are still millions hunger in Africa, human right is not respected in Muslim countries, what can Westerner do about it? Almost nothing, so this is what science and technology can do to human kind? Hungers are still in existence and dictatorships are free? This is the civilization of the world based on the wisdom of the West?

The human civilization is not all about science, and FYI, commercial and politics are very important too, and republic and democracy are not that great. And I believe Easterners are very good on many something else. For example, the US, the leading in science and technology, must based on China to produce its goods. The Chinese is worse in many fields (than the US) but it used a grand strategy to beat the almighty US to it knees. Let face the reality, how many inventions, scientists are needed to make the jobs come back to US? Grand strategy beats anything else, e.g cheap labor beats justice and civilization, sometimes quantity beats quality, sometime quality beats quantity, so who sees the cause and effect will be the strategist. Easterners are very good on strategy, something science and technology can not solve.

I agree that traditional Buddhism is not that good for science, but without Buddhism, monolithic religions can not help science to reach it top level, because monolithic religions are all extremists which are closed minds. Closed minds are not good for science, actually it is against science (they were against scientists in the past). Monolithic religions are and still will be the obstacle for the development of science.

Actually I believe Buddhism is the best for science and almost anything else because it helps people have opened mind. Actually many branches of Buddhism are extremist. It is much easier to direct a Buddhism community into science or facing the truth than Christianity community. The problem is not Buddhism, but people, people don't understand what Buddhism is but worship it like a religion. The best mindset for science is be open minded, it is not only thw best for science but everything else. You have an opened mind because you ask a question, and have the preparation to accept the answer, or reality. Only an opened mind can accept the reality, whether it is in science, or else where. Another important thing is be logical and be innovative. Both of these must be based on opened mind.

Ah, I don't give any value to claims like modern science cant be developed in the Buddhism society, that is the claim of a losers. Oh I were very rich, but now I am very poor. Show me what you have, not what you had. Great people always have visions of the future, they see the future before others and take the chance, only loser inclines to the past. Don't use the past to judge the future. A poor man with will and hard work and wisdom will be rich, and a rich man but stupid and ignorant will become poor.

And believe me, science is not that important. Actually technology changes the world, and businessman and entrepreneurs are much more important than scientist. I will trade a good engineer or an entrepreneurs over a pure scientist, anyday everyday includes Sunday.

I am not in the country or the race the Buddha were born, but I bow down to the truth and the wisdom of him. When you have an opened mind, you will see the cause of many things, it is very different than what fast food historians or scientist claims. The West the East, don't be racist, just be open minded
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suttametta
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Re: Buddhism and developments of science.

Post by suttametta »

Aloka wrote:
suttametta wrote: Obviously, it was a place of humans. All these things you mention pale in comparison to what modernity did to them. I have been to their impoverished camps in India. Despite their poverty, they never complain. They effuse welcome and love. They share and give gifts. They are bright and forthcoming. They never stop smiling. They laugh and joke. Even my teacher was placed in a barn by Chinese with hundreds of people, naked and muddy, people died pressed up next to him, rotted and shitting, maggots growing out. People would disappear in the middle of the night. They had to March starving in snow, people dropping dead and losing their toes and fingers. They had to carry the bodies themselves over mountains. Their suffering is exactly a holocaust. Millions of Tibetans were killed. And now they are almost like the native Americans, nearly extinct. Yet, they smile, joke, laugh and show more reverence than ever for Buddha, dharma and sangha. They say their lives were simple, no education, and many hardships to even gather salt, but they took everyday to be an expression of dharma and they were happy. .
I already know what happened to a lot of them and the conditions that some of the Tibetans who are now in the west lived through when they escaped over the Himalayas, because a couple of Tibetan friends have talked to me about it. However I was refering to life in Tibet before the communist take-over.
Anyway what do you think is the path to shangrila? It is through a dense thorny thicket, leaches dropping like rain, up a cliff face, to... Exactly where you are. That is the Tibetan way


Shangri-la is a mythical kingdom from a novel called "Lost Horizon."

End of conversation for me now, thanks suttametta. The topic is about Buddhism and science and I guess we should remember that this is Dhamma Wheel Theravada forum and not its sister website Dharma Wheel Mahayana/Vajrayana forum.

:anjali:
I like your picture.

I guess the point of my little rant there was to say modernity was no improvement. The opposite. Inner technology of the highest caliber is what they already had. That there are abuses by governors is no surprise. As if the West or modern East were immune to that. The oppression and destruction of peoples by technologically advanced nations is epidemic. I have very little respect for technology. We benefit from the side-effects of military rule; nothing more.
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