Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhists

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mettafuture
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by mettafuture » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:47 pm

Relating to the OP, I was directed to a video of an anti-Semitic sheikh, Sharif Hussein, praying for the death of Buddhists, Hindus, and President Obama. Here's a link to the video, and here's a news article about it.
Modus.Ponens wrote:And I also realized something in the meantime, reading your post. Since islamophobia is prevalent in the world, if decent people deny their islamophobia, only the undecent people will express it. And that's very dangerous because fascists don't bother separating the human being, and his/her fundamental and undeniable human rights, from the religion that that human being has. If more decent people are involved in telling the truth it's more likely to exist a reasonable and considerate response to this problem _ as opposed to the fascists' way.
It might not even be fair to label a rational wariness of Islam as a "phobia." It should be called something else. But I agree with the last point. A distinction has to be made between Muslims and Islam. Condemn the ideas, not the people.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:20 am

mettafuture wrote:Relating to the OP, I was directed to a video of an anti-Semitic sheikh, Sharif Hussein, praying for the death of Buddhists, Hindus, and President Obama. Here's a link to the video, and here's a news article about it.
Just to balance the accounts somewhat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove_World ... ontroversy
Modus.Ponens wrote:And I also realized something in the meantime, reading your post. Since islamophobia is prevalent in the world, if decent people deny their islamophobia, only the undecent people will express it. And that's very dangerous because fascists don't bother separating the human being, and his/her fundamental and undeniable human rights, from the religion that that human being has. If more decent people are involved in telling the truth it's more likely to exist a reasonable and considerate response to this problem _ as opposed to the fascists' way.
It might not even be fair to label a rational wariness of Islam as a "phobia." It should be called something else. But I agree with the last point. A distinction has to be made between Muslims and Islam. Condemn the ideas, not the people.
You're moving in the right direction, mettafuture :clap:
Now, just why do you want to condemn the religion wholesale? Do you also condemn Christianity wholesale? You should, because Islam today is in many ways very similar to the mainstream Christianity of a few hundred years ago and the fringe Christianity of today, and if you're condemning Islam wholesale you're saying that it can't grow beyond its intolerance.

:namaste:
Kim

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:51 am

Kim OHara wrote: You're moving in the right direction, mettafuture :clap:
Now, just why do you want to condemn the religion wholesale? Do you also condemn Christianity wholesale? You should, because Islam today is in many ways very similar to the mainstream Christianity of a few hundred years ago and the fringe Christianity of today, and if you're condemning Islam wholesale you're saying that it can't grow beyond its intolerance.

:namaste:
Kim
The old testament is as bad as the quran (and if you really want to be amazed, read the hadiths). The thing is that christianity is based on the teachings of Christ. So it's harder to categorise a religion that has two very distinct set of teachings _ the old and the new testament _ as a singular body. With islam, that doesn't happen. It comes straight from mohammed, who claimed that he was receiving the words of god through an angel. And that difference is fulcral. Although christians can ignore the old testament with a bit of resistence, there is no way for a muslim to deny what's in all their canonical scriptures _ or, to be more precise, the quran and the sahih (sound) hadiths.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Kim OHara
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:22 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Kim OHara wrote: You're moving in the right direction, mettafuture :clap:
Now, just why do you want to condemn the religion wholesale? Do you also condemn Christianity wholesale? You should, because Islam today is in many ways very similar to the mainstream Christianity of a few hundred years ago and the fringe Christianity of today, and if you're condemning Islam wholesale you're saying that it can't grow beyond its intolerance.

:namaste:
Kim
The old testament is as bad as the quran (and if you really want to be amazed, read the hadiths). The thing is that christianity is based on the teachings of Christ. So it's harder to categorise a religion that has two very distinct set of teachings _ the old and the new testament _ as a singular body. With islam, that doesn't happen. It comes straight from mohammed, who claimed that he was receiving the words of god through an angel. And that difference is fulcral. Although christians can ignore the old testament with a bit of resistence, there is no way for a muslim to deny what's in all their canonical scriptures _ or, to be more precise, the quran and the sahih (sound) hadiths.
On the other hand, they can do the sensible thing and downplay or totally ignore the scriptures they disagree with, just as the rest of us do. I've been using Christianity as a convenient comparison and I could do so again but I will be more ecumenical and ask you to think about how many Western Buddhists are practising homosexuals (forbidden) and how many Jews eat pork (forbidden) or marry outside the faith.
Or I could use the argument from statistics: how many Muslims have not attacked Christians, Hindus or Buddhists in the last year? How many Muslims live quiet, moral, law-abiding lives rather than going on jihad?

:namaste:
Kim

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mettafuture
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by mettafuture » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:10 am

Kim OHara wrote:Just to balance the accounts somewhat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove_World ... ontroversy
Related stories:
Muslims in Nigeria Club Christian Teacher to Death
Two Christians punished for 'burning' Quran
After Gojra, 3 ‘blasphemy’ killings in Pak Punjab for ‘desecrating Quran’
Pakistan family wants kin punished for 'desecrating Quran'
Mob kills man, burns corpse for desecrating Quran
Bibles burned at US base in Afghanistan, ZERO people killed
You're moving in the right direction, mettafuture
You can't turn to a direction you've always faced.
Now, just why do you want to condemn the religion wholesale?
I've read the Quran, and I've seen what happens when its teachings are taken literally.
Do you also condemn Christianity wholesale?
Yes I do, but, since many of its adherents aren't aggressively trying to convert or kill every "infidel" and "blasphemer" right now, it's not a priority.
How many Muslims live quiet, moral, law-abiding lives rather than going on jihad?
Plenty, but their religion still motivates a lot of violence, arguably more than any other mainstream religion today.

binocular
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by binocular » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:18 am

mettafuture wrote:Basically, while there may be violent Buddhists, I don't believe a "violent Buddhism" exists.

If there is no such thing as "violent Buddhism", then how can there be "violent Buddhists"?

If a person practices Buddhism, then that person is a Buddhist, and if Buddhism isn't violent, then a person practicing Buddhism cannot be violent either.

It's just that a particular person might not be practicing Buddhism 24/7 and/or not perfectly. So on the grounds can be label that person a "Buddhist"?
The label "Buddhist" (or any other label) leads us to think that that label defines a person's identity 24/7. Upon some consideration, we see that is not correct.
I seriously doubt a protective chant would have much effect on someone who's chasing you down with a machete trying to cut your head off.
Have you ever tried to chant a protective chant when in a dangerous situation?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:50 am

Kim OHara wrote: On the other hand, they can do the sensible thing and downplay or totally ignore the scriptures they disagree with, just as the rest of us do. I've been using Christianity as a convenient comparison and I could do so again but I will be more ecumenical and ask you to think about how many Western Buddhists are practising homosexuals (forbidden) and how many Jews eat pork (forbidden) or marry outside the faith.
Or I could use the argument from statistics: how many Muslims have not attacked Christians, Hindus or Buddhists in the last year? How many Muslims live quiet, moral, law-abiding lives rather than going on jihad?

:namaste:
Kim
I was going to try to respond to your argument, but instead I'm going straight to the heart of the matter. Since you are buddhist I assume you don't believe in god. Therefore either you believe that mohammed was talking with some kind of deva or that he invented the whole thing. Being completely honest, which one you think is more likely? Exactly. Now why do you need to defend those "teachings"?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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mettafuture
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by mettafuture » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:26 pm

binocular wrote:It's just that a particular person might not be practicing Buddhism 24/7 and/or not perfectly. So on the grounds can we label that person a "Buddhist"?
There may be moments when a Buddhist isn't behaving very Buddhist-like, but if they've taken refuge in the Triple Gem, and want to follow the Eightfold Path (despite failing to do so), I believe they could still be considered Buddhists.
Have you ever tried to chant a protective chant when in a dangerous situation?
Thousands of Buddhists have been killed by Muslims over the last 800 years. I would bet at least one of them tried a protective chant.

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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by binocular » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:23 pm

mettafuture wrote:There may be moments when a Buddhist isn't behaving very Buddhist-like, but if they've taken refuge in the Triple Gem, and want to follow the Eightfold Path (despite failing to do so), I believe they could still be considered Buddhists.
Then why not make the same concession for Muslims?
The Koran gives a variety of instructions for how to deal with non-Muslisms, to the point that with it, it is possible to justify both a hostile, as well as a peaceful attitude toward non-Muslims.
Kafir and Jihad

For dealing with non-Muslims, Jasser Auda, a director of the al-Maqasid Research Centre in the Philosophy of the Islamic Law in London, England, says that the general rule is mentioned in the verse that says what means:

"Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers." ([Quran 60:8])

Birr in this context is likened to birr al-walidain, the kindness that a Muslim should show to his or her parents.[28] This quote addresses the relationship between the concepts of kafir and jihad in Islam.

While the Qur'anic statement of peace towards non-Muslims and non-believers is implied within this passage, the practical sense of jihad in Islam is derived from the example of the Prophet Muhammad. A. Ghosh, author of The Koran and the kafir cites the Prophet's war against the Qurayza Jewish tribe in 627 A.D. and subsequent wars of the caliphate as the starting point for a pattern of "jihad" which he translates as, "holy war," against the infidel in the Muslim religion.[29]
However, the research of Dr. Sherman Jackson suggests a separation between the classical terms of "jihad" and the modern interpretations of "jihad." According to Jackson, both the Qur'an and classical interpretations of jihad show that "a perennial 'state of war'" existed, where in which the "assumed relationship" between neighboring tribes was one of hostility, while in the modern world the "assumed relationship" illustrates a state of peace unless provoked by the other party.[30]
Thus, although “jihad” was often painted as a “holy war” against infidels, the historical and cultural backgrounds of the Muslims involved in “jihad” must be taken into consideration.[31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir
Thousands of Buddhists have been killed by Muslims over the last 800 years. I would bet at least one of them tried a protective chant.
External events are hardly a measure of the quality of a person's intentions.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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mettafuture
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by mettafuture » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:18 pm

binocular wrote:
mettafuture wrote:There may be moments when a Buddhist isn't behaving very Buddhist-like, but if they've taken refuge in the Triple Gem, and want to follow the Eightfold Path (despite failing to do so), I believe they could still be considered Buddhists.
Then why not make the same concession for Muslims?
Because the scriptural foundation of Islam is the Quran. If someone chooses to commit one of the many hostile acts authorized by the Quranic suras, that person is behaving completely in accordance with Islamic teachings.

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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:05 am

mettafuture wrote:Thousands of Buddhists have been killed by Muslims over the last 800 years.
How Buddhist are we going to be about this?
Are we going to allow for the Buddhist (!) teaching on karma and rebirth to enter our considerations of these things?

What if in a previous lifetime, the roles were reversed?
What if the Muslims who now kill Buddhists were in a previous lifetime Buddhists who killed Muslims, or any other beings?
Or what if in a previous lifetime, they both were of some other religions, but were into doing harm, so this time around, their karma from back then is coming to fruition?
Or what if the whole thing has nothing to do with religion, but with, say, someone who was a butcher in a previous lifetime now gets killed by the beings he killed?

The possible scenarios of karma and rebirth that may have led o the current situation are many. The idea isn't to try to figure out what exactly may have happened in a previous lifetime, but to offer a different perspective on the situation.

I'm not saying this to justify or excuse anyone's violence against anyone. It's just that if we are going to be Buddhist about these things, then we might as well go all the way and include consideration of karma and rebirth into our analysis of the situation.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Aloka
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Aloka » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:20 am

binocular wrote:
mettafuture wrote:Thousands of Buddhists have been killed by Muslims over the last 800 years.
How Buddhist are we going to be about this?
Are we going to allow for the Buddhist (!) teaching on karma and rebirth to enter our considerations of these things?

What if in a previous lifetime, the roles were reversed?
What if the Muslims who now kill Buddhists were in a previous lifetime Buddhists who killed Muslims, or any other beings?
Or what if in a previous lifetime, they both were of some other religions, but were into doing harm, so this time around, their karma from back then is coming to fruition?
Or what if the whole thing has nothing to do with religion, but with, say, someone who was a butcher in a previous lifetime now gets killed by the beings he killed?

The possible scenarios of karma and rebirth that may have led o the current situation are many. The idea isn't to try to figure out what exactly may have happened in a previous lifetime, but to offer a different perspective on the situation.

I'm not saying this to justify or excuse anyone's violence against anyone. It's just that if we are going to be Buddhist about these things, then we might as well go all the way and include consideration of karma and rebirth into our analysis of the situation.

I'm not sure how "What if" speculation about other lives is relevant, because the Buddha said in AN 4.77 that the precise working out of the results of kamma is an unconjecturable "that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:

binocular
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:32 am

Aloka wrote: I'm not sure how "What if" speculation about other lives is relevant, because the Buddha said in AN 4.77 that the precise working out of the results of kamma is an unconjecturable "that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."
Already addressed elsewhere recently:
binocular wrote: With karma, there are two teachings that seem to be at odds:

One is from the sutta on the unconjecturables, namely, that the exact workings of karma are not to be speculated about.

The other is on this/that conditionality, and the instruction to reflect on one's actions and their consequences (such as in the instructions to Rahula) that suggests there is a causal relationship and that we can get insight into it.

I don't think the two teachings are mutually exclusive. While one might certainly not be able to have full insight into the workings of karma at all times, that doesn't mean that the whole principle of reflecting on actions and their consequences should be dismissed.

Personally, I find that the very act of reflecting on possible cause-effect scenarios is enough to lead to dispassion and to a calmer approach to the situation.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p277272
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Aloka
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Aloka » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:44 am

Aloka wrote: I'm not sure how "What if" speculation about other lives is relevant, because the Buddha said in AN 4.77 that the precise working out of the results of kamma is an unconjecturable "that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."
binocular wrote:Already addressed elsewhere recently:
binocular wrote:Personally, I find that the very act of reflecting on possible cause-effect scenarios is enough to lead to dispassion and to a calmer approach to the situation.
Ok, so "what if" they were all caterpillars and Blue-Tits in past lives - I'm baffled as to how that addresses the present situation between Buddhists and Muslims, or indeed, the actual OP #1.

:anjali:

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Kim OHara
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Re: Looking for more info on Muslim violence against Buddhis

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:38 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Kim OHara wrote: On the other hand, they can do the sensible thing and downplay or totally ignore the scriptures they disagree with, just as the rest of us do. I've been using Christianity as a convenient comparison and I could do so again but I will be more ecumenical and ask you to think about how many Western Buddhists are practising homosexuals (forbidden) and how many Jews eat pork (forbidden) or marry outside the faith.
Or I could use the argument from statistics: how many Muslims have not attacked Christians, Hindus or Buddhists in the last year? How many Muslims live quiet, moral, law-abiding lives rather than going on jihad?

:namaste:
Kim
I was going to try to respond to your argument, but instead I'm going straight to the heart of the matter. Since you are buddhist I assume you don't believe in god. Therefore either you believe that mohammed was talking with some kind of deva or that he invented the whole thing. Being completely honest, which one you think is more likely? Exactly. Now why do you need to defend those "teachings"?
I don't defend the teachings. I defend the people who (mostly) were born to them, grew up with them and live (mostly) reasonably moral and honest lives - just as I defend the people who grew up with Christianity or Buddhism or any other religion, whether I believe their religion or not.

Respond to my argument if you like - I'm curious as to how you would go about it.

:namaste:
Kim

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