Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Ajahn Sujato. While he did train at some of the Ajahn Chah related monasteries, I dont believe he ever met Ajahn Chah, and I would consider him very much an 'independent'.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
- Dhammanando
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
It wasn't Ajahn Brahm whom I had in mind but rather those monastics whose withdrawal from the Ajahn Chah scene was their own choice. For example, the American Ajahn Sumano, formerly of Chithurst but now living alone in Chiangmai, the Aussie Bill Platypus, who began at Wat Pa Nanachat but then disrobed and switched to the Dhammayuttika Nikaya, and then all the western breakaway nuns (I don’t remember any of their names) who started out with Ajahn Sumedho.You imply Ajahn Brahm perhaps. But who else "were formerly in the Ajahn Chah camp but then moved onto other pastures" ?
I think that in part it’s due to the type of people who get drawn to the forest tradition. The preponderance of them are pretty introverted. But mostly it’s due to the fact that few of these monks regard themselves as qualified to teach. I mean in the forest tradition in general the idea is that teaching is the preserve of spiritual virtuosos —monks with high attainments— and until you become such yourself it’s best to keep your mouth shut and not take on responsibilities that are likely to distract you from this aim.Any thoughts on why there are so few western disciples setting themselves up as teachers,
In the Ajahn Chah tradition it’s different because there the monks don’t really have a choice in the matter, but are pushed more or less willy-nilly into teaching positions.
Doubt, loss of faith in the Dhamma, despair about their capacity for progress, sexual desire, boredom, depression, culture shock, homesickness, ill health, pārājika offences, long-concealed saṅghādisesa offences, aversion to Thai people or food or climate, contempt for their fellow monks, family problems, etc., etc. Besides these there are an extra two reasons that seem to be peculiar to those living in the west. One is an uncomfortable feeling of alienation from the surrounding culture; there are moments when it just seems so absurd to be walking around a modern western city in an ancient Indian ascetic’s garb. The other is that it’s a great deal easier for a monk to get burned out than it is when he’s living in Asia.or why so many have disrobed for that matter?
I recall reading that in the Thai sangha as a whole, the proportion of the monk population at any given time who will remain in the robes for more than a decade is about 7%, while those who will be monks for life amount to less than 1.5%. So statistically it would appear that disrobing is really just what comes naturally. The oddballs who don't disrobe are the ones whose behaviour needs explaining.
Thanks for the news.Yes, as far as I know Ajahn Dick Silaratano is the abbot there.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Venerable,
If I may ask, but what is your tradition? Do you consider yourself a forest tradition monk or do you have a different background?
Thanks,
If I may ask, but what is your tradition? Do you consider yourself a forest tradition monk or do you have a different background?
Thanks,
- Dhammanando
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Theravada, but without being allied with any particular one of the Theravadin sub-traditions.If I may ask, but what is your tradition?
My background is rather variegated, comprising six years in Thai and Burmese urban pariyatti monasteries, six years in monasteries affiliated with the late Khrubar Phrommajak, two years in an Ajahn Chah wat, one year in a Dhammayut forest wat, two years in vipassana meditation centres, and nine years living alone. Though I don’t identify with any particular sub-tradition, the monks whom I have most to do with nowadays are Thais belonging to Khrubar Phrommajak’s Lamphun branch of the Chiang Mai tradition of Khrubar Sriwichai.Do you consider yourself a forest tradition monk or do you have a different background?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Maybe have a look at : http://forestsangha.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With metta
Chris
With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
How coolMy background is rather variegated, comprising six years in Thai and Burmese urban pariyatti monasteries, six years in monasteries affiliated with the late Khrubar Phrommajak, two years in an Ajahn Chah wat, one year in a Dhammayut forest wat, two years in vipassana meditation centres, and nine years living alone. Though I don’t identify with any particular sub-tradition, the monks whom I have most to do with nowadays are Thais belonging to Khrubar Phrommajak’s Lamphun branch of the Chiang Mai tradition of Khrubar Sriwichai.
Would you recommend a young western monk (newly ordained) to follow such a variegated path, or do you think it would be better for him to find a certain tradition/monastery and try to stick with it for as long as he can (if he can)?
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Yes, very cool. I think Zom asks a very good question. Hope you will answer it.
Where is Kruba Phrommajak's main site located nowadays? Hard to find any info on google.
Thanks again. Very interesting.
Where is Kruba Phrommajak's main site located nowadays? Hard to find any info on google.
Thanks again. Very interesting.
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
There is Ven Yuttadhammo of the Parideha Forest Monastery, near Winnipeg, Canada. He is a disciple of Ajahn Sirimangalo who teaches in the Mahasi tradition.
http://canada.sirimangalo.org/parideha/
http://canada.sirimangalo.org/parideha/
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
I do not know if Ajahn Martin Piyadhammo teach, but I appreciate his Dhamma talks. http://forestdhammatalks.org/
- appicchato
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
An apt depiction (if asked)...(from one of the oddballs...(who does believe he wouldn't be able to cut it in the West))...viva Southeast Asia...Dhammanando wrote:
Doubt, loss of faith in the Dhamma, despair about their capacity for progress, sexual desire, boredom, depression, culture shock, homesickness, ill health, pārājika offences, long-concealed saṅghādisesa offences, aversion to Thai people or food or climate, contempt for their fellow monks, family problems, etc., etc. Besides these there are an extra two reasons that seem to be peculiar to those living in the west. One is an uncomfortable feeling of alienation from the surrounding culture; there are moments when it just seems so absurd to be walking around a modern western city in an ancient Indian ascetic’s garb. The other is that it’s a great deal easier for a monk to get burned out than it is when he’s living in Asia.
I recall reading that in the Thai sangha as a whole, the proportion of the monk population at any given time who will remain in the robes for more than a decade is about 7%, while those who will be monks for life amount to less than 1.5%. So statistically it would appear that disrobing is really just what comes naturally. The oddballs who don't disrobe are the ones whose behaviour needs explaining.
- PsychedelicSunSet
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
appicchato wrote:
An apt depiction (if asked)...(from one of the oddballs...(who does believe he wouldn't be able to cut it in the West))...viva Southeast Asia...
What exactly makes it harder in the West, Bhante?
Metta
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
Dhammanando wrote:It wasn't Ajahn Brahm whom I had in mind but rather those monastics whose withdrawal from the Ajahn Chah scene was their own choice. For example, the American Ajahn Sumano, formerly of Chithurst but now living alone in Chiangmai, the Aussie Bill Platypus, who began at Wat Pa Nanachat but then disrobed and switched to the Dhammayuttika Nikaya, and then all the western breakaway nuns (I don’t remember any of their names) who started out with Ajahn Sumedho.You imply Ajahn Brahm perhaps. But who else "were formerly in the Ajahn Chah camp but then moved onto other pastures" ?
I think that in part it’s due to the type of people who get drawn to the forest tradition. The preponderance of them are pretty introverted. But mostly it’s due to the fact that few of these monks regard themselves as qualified to teach. I mean in the forest tradition in general the idea is that teaching is the preserve of spiritual virtuosos —monks with high attainments— and until you become such yourself it’s best to keep your mouth shut and not take on responsibilities that are likely to distract you from this aim.Any thoughts on why there are so few western disciples setting themselves up as teachers,
In the Ajahn Chah tradition it’s different because there the monks don’t really have a choice in the matter, but are pushed more or less willy-nilly into teaching positions.
Doubt, loss of faith in the Dhamma, despair about their capacity for progress, sexual desire, boredom, depression, culture shock, homesickness, ill health, pārājika offences, long-concealed saṅghādisesa offences, aversion to Thai people or food or climate, contempt for their fellow monks, family problems, etc., etc. Besides these there are an extra two reasons that seem to be peculiar to those living in the west. One is an uncomfortable feeling of alienation from the surrounding culture; there are moments when it just seems so absurd to be walking around a modern western city in an ancient Indian ascetic’s garb. The other is that it’s a great deal easier for a monk to get burned out than it is when he’s living in Asia.or why so many have disrobed for that matter?
I recall reading that in the Thai sangha as a whole, the proportion of the monk population at any given time who will remain in the robes for more than a decade is about 7%, while those who will be monks for life amount to less than 1.5%. So statistically it would appear that disrobing is really just what comes naturally. The oddballs who don't disrobe are the ones whose behaviour needs explaining.
Thanks for the news.Yes, as far as I know Ajahn Dick Silaratano is the abbot there.
Thank you Sir!
Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
The ex-Bhikkhu Santikaro still goes by the name Santikaro and teaches. He has established Liberation Park in West central Wisconsin and has a website: http://liberationpark.org/Dhammanando wrote: .....
The Buddhadāsa disciples have all disrobed, with the exception of the veteran German monk Tan Khemadassī (who was only rather loosely associated with Ajahn Buddhadāsa). He lives as a hermit on an island in Trat Province and doesn’t teach. Of those who’ve disrobed I think only the ex-Santikaro Bhikkhu now teaches.
......
He comes to Minneapolis one or two weekends a year to do a Friday evening talk and a Saturday teaching workshop. I believe he also goes to Chicago on occasion to teach.
As for the question of why bhikkus disrobe, Santikaro has married since disrobing and speculation is that points to the answer of "why".
Peace,
Jeff
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945
:Vibh 945
- Hickersonia
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
I think we spend a lot of time worrying about the reasons why one might disrobe when those reasons may not really be any of our business. I don't mind the idea of a monk (or nun) disrobing -- at least there isn't a defeat offense involved then, and maybe men such as Santikaro can contribute just as much (or more) in lay life.JeffR wrote:As for the question of why bhikkus disrobe, Santikaro has married since disrobing and speculation is that points to the answer of "why".
And I'm not really sure that the reasons why one monk or another might disrobe is really to the point of this thread anyway...
Hickersonia
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"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
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"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
- appicchato
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Re: Western Teachers of the Thai Forest Tradition
PsychedelicSunSet wrote:appicchato wrote:
An apt depiction (if asked)...(from one of the oddballs...(who does believe he wouldn't be able to cut it in the West))...viva Southeast Asia...
What exactly makes it harder in the West, Bhante?
Don't know if I would word it that way,...in Thailand, Buddhism overtly permeates the air, everywhere...being a monk requires a very real, and (continuous) conscious responsibility of all that entails...not to say that doesn't exist in the Occident...just a general (personal) feeling I guess, of being on familiar ground, where one is known, and accepted by all...