masturbation what's wrong?

[tiltbillings]

A hindrance, when we are truly mindful of it, is it a hindrance? Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?

Reflecting upon it, yes.
But how much reflection can you do at the time?

At what time? And it not a matter of reflection; it is a matter of paying attention to what is actually happening as it happens: "In the seen, just the seen ...."

Kilesas tend to take control of us, much in the same way that a pirate takes over a ship.

Of course, and that is my point. They don't have to.

If we were really bent on using the kilesas as an object for vipassana, then we'd only need to have engaged in them once. We wouldn't need these constant 'refresher' courses.

Doesn't follow. Until we are awakened, we are going to have to deal with these things, constantly. Like any object of awareness, they are anicca, dukkha, anatta; being thus, they can be an occasion for insight. And I am not saying that one when one feels like wacking-off, one just wacks off. The wanting can be an object of awareness. (But if one does, I do not see a reason to beat oneself up with guilt and shame.)

I am not in control of my passions, they are in control of me.

[/quote][/quote]

And how do you gain control? By cultivating mindfulness. Seeing the nature of the passions over and over and over....

[tiltbillings]

Well, I think in that case you're talking about sampajanna.

From the Mahasatipatthana Sutta:

Again, a monk, when going foward or back, is clearly aware of what he is doing, in looking forward or back he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in bending and stretching he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in carrying his inner and outer robe and his bowl he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in eating, drinking, chewing and savouring he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in passing excrement or urine he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep and waking up, in speaking or staying silent, he is clearly aware of what he is doing. So he abides contemplating the body as body internally, externally, both internally and externally ... And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body.

I don't see how that would ever lead to ejaculation.

An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

[Ben]

A three-month retreat?
I'm currently trying to negotiate a 30-day retreat without trashing my marriage!
I'm aware that during meditation, one can bring ones attention to any phenomena that arises. My own experience is that cittanupassana and dhammanupassana is nigh-on-impossible for me outside of the retreat setting. In day-to-day lay life, there's just so much going on and if one's samadhi is not good, one may conflate subtle relishing and aversion with wise attention.
As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!
Kind regards

Ben

[christopher:::]

As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!

I need to adopt that approach in my work environment, which is basically like working in the midst of super models... arrgh... thank brahma for summer vacations...

[tiltbillings]

As for the pretty girl sitting on the cushion....
I tend to spend the vast majority of my time in a dark tiny little broom-closet like cell and the times i emerge from the cell, I keep my eyes firmly fixed on the ground a metre or two in front of me!

I need to adopt that approach in my work environment, which is basically like working in the midst of super models... arrgh... thank brahma for summer vacations...

Then the Venerable Ananda said to the Blessed One: "How, Lord, should we conduct ourselves towards women?"

"Do not see them, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if we do see them?"

"Do not speak, Ananda."

"But, Lord, if they should speak to us?"

"Then, Ananda, you should establish mindfulness." - DN 16

[nathan]

I'd just like to thank everyone involved for this thread. I was moved to tears on several occasions.
rotfl

[Jechbi]

An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?

[tiltbillings]

An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?

sampajanna

Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

[Jechbi]

Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?

[Ben]

Hi Jechbi

An interesting thought. In a very general sense there are parallels between sex and religious practice, which why in some tradition sexual imagery is used.

Okay, derail time, if you'll indulge me. Let's say a man is having sex with his wife, fully mindful, fully attentive, straight through to orgasm, including during orgasm. Sampajano?

My teacher defines sampajanno with specific reference to the quality of awareness to the changing nature of an object: (clear comprehension of the anicca characteristic). How does one, develop sampajanno while in the midst of such an intensely pleasurable and lustful experience? As I may have said earlier on this thread, or perhaps somewhere else, its all to easy - in fact natural - to confuse subtle craving and aversion with wise attention.
Metta

Ben

[Jechbi]

How does one, develop sampajanno while in the midst of such an intensely pleasurable and lustful experience?

Indeed. So, having been developed, is it even conceivable, as Tilt appears to suggest? Would such an activity occur?

[Ben]

Hi Jechbi
Perhaps it is possible - technically speaking.
From my own experience, I don't think I've ever been able to develop the requisite equanimity and sampajanno without getting completely derailed and enmeshed in the sankhara-producing event. But I am no yogi by any stretch of the imagination!
From a practical perspective, perhaps there is a natural parting of the mind from acquiring such intensely sankhara-laden experiences the further one walks down the path.
Metta

Ben

[cooran]

Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?

Gotcha!

[tiltbillings]

Is it out of the realm of possibilities, probably not, but also probably very difficult.

Would you answer the same with regard to masturbation?

Can you be fully attentive while eating something pleasurable?

So, you have a guy that has chroniic prostatosis; is not married, and the doctors says to him, you need to "drain" your prostate several times a week to keep down the congestation and thusly the pain and to keep it healthy. So, he is not necessarily masturbating because of lust or because he is bored or even to pleasure himself because he wants to. Given this motivation, would it possible to for one to wack-off mindfully, just as it is possible to eat mindfully as a Dhamma practice?

[Jechbi]

So, you have a guy that has chroniic prostatosis; is not married, and the doctoirs says to him, you need to "drain" your prostate several times a week to keep down he congestation and thusly the pain. So, he is not masturbating because of lust or because he is bored or even to pleasure himself because he wants to. Given this motivation, would it possible to for one to wack-off mindfully, just as it is possible to eat mindfully?

Guess it depends on whether he uses "visual aids."

But seriously, how does that example relate to the notion that hinderances don't always hinder?