Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
binocular
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by binocular » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:47 pm

dhammafriend wrote:What do you mean a worldly price?

That following one's religion could mean having fewer friends, fewer job opportunities, not being particularly liked in general. Things like that.
So people should just suck it up, whatever happens to them?
Never suggested that.
So what you're saying is that deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation are valid means of Christian evangelism. Got it.
You made my argument for me.
Please don't put words into my mouth nor thoughts into my head.

In samsara, things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation can reasonably be expected. A good religion is one that can make its practitioners resilient to those, so that they cannot be exploited.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Aloka
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by Aloka » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:11 pm

binocular wrote:.

In samsara, things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation can reasonably be expected. A good religion is one that can make its practitioners resilient to those, so that they cannot be exploited.
Samsara isn't a place that we live in.

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dhammafriend
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by dhammafriend » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:29 pm

In samsara, things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation can reasonably be expected. A good religion is one that can make its practitioners resilient to those, so that they cannot be exploited.
Is that really a role of religion? Please define a good religion that can make its practitioners resilient to psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.

As far as i know I don't think samsara is a place. Rather the process of making and perpetuation of 'place'. Its what putthujanas experience.

Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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Mkoll
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:06 pm

binocular wrote:
dhammafriend wrote:What do you mean a worldly price?

That following one's religion could mean having fewer friends, fewer job opportunities, not being particularly liked in general. Things like that.
The operative word here is could. For many people, religion is the center of their social lives. The one example I have is that many Christian churches are essentially community centers where everyone gets together and supports one another, shares food, makes friends, and forms lasting bonds. People help each other when in need.

Perhaps this is a bit idealistic nowadays. But in the past when survival was more uncertain, this kind of mutual support was an absolute necessity.

:anjali:

Hi Aloka and dhammafriend,

I'd be curious if you could elaborate your views on samsara.***

:anjali:

***Mods, please move this to a new thread if you feel it's necessary, e.g. what is samsara?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Aloka
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by Aloka » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:53 pm

Hi Aloka and dhammafriend,

I'd be curious if you could elaborate your views on samsara
Hi Mkoll,

This might help:
Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?"

Continued : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... msara.html

:anjali:

binocular
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by binocular » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:04 pm

Mkoll wrote:The operative word here is could. For many people, religion is the center of their social lives. The one example I have is that many Christian churches are essentially community centers where everyone gets together and supports one another, shares food, makes friends, and forms lasting bonds. People help each other when in need.

Perhaps this is a bit idealistic nowadays. But in the past when survival was more uncertain, this kind of mutual support was an absolute necessity.
I think what you say applies in traditional monocultures. Not in modern settings where there are many cultures, many religions present in one geographical area, and they compete amongst eachother and have varying degrees of socio-economic influence. Especially in such multicultural, multireligious settings, being a member of one religion could come with a considerable worldly price when that religion doesn't have much political and socio-economic power, while the other religion(s) do.

Like many poor Hindus in India are experiencing. In the West, some people are afraid to devote themselves to a religion they feel attracted to, because they are afraid of the negative socio-economic consequences this may have. I know of several Hare Krishnas who keep their religion secret because they are afraid they would lose their job if their boss and other employees would find out.

dhammafriend wrote:Is that really a role of religion? Please define a good religion that can make its practitioners resilient to psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.
Religion should have some use, should it not? If one's religion, or one's particular practice of a religion doesn't help one deal with the problems of samsara, the problems of aging, illness, death, and separation, in their various forms, then maybe that religion isn't all that good, or one isn't practicing it right/sufficiently.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by binocular » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:07 pm

Aloka wrote:Samsara isn't a place that we live in.
When other people are in samsara, they can be expected to engage in things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.
When oneself is in samsara, one can be expected to be vulnerable to things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mkoll
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by Mkoll » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:17 am

:thanks:

Thanks for the link, Aloka.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:58 am

Mkoll wrote::thanks:

Thanks for the link, Aloka.

:anjali:

:thumbsup:
It is a great link!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by SarathW » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:59 am

binocular wrote:
Aloka wrote:Samsara isn't a place that we live in.
When other people are in samsara, they can be expected to engage in things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.
When oneself is in samsara, one can be expected to be vulnerable to things like deceit, psychological torture & the threat of economic depravation.
I think we are vulnerable only if we pay attention to the object.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dhammafriend
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by dhammafriend » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:07 am

Hi all

My interpretation is as that samsara is a process not a 'thing' or place/location. Its the process of making 'things' & 'places'. (through dependent origination)
Samsara is how the worldling experiences his life. Conversely, Nibbana is how the Noble Ones experience life. So neither Samsara or Nibbana are locations.

The being and his 'world' arise co-dependently. Like hell beings and their 'realm', humans and their realm etc. Samsaric beings sharing similar kamma find themselves in the same realm.

Does this make sense? Please i'm not touting this as the only way to view these terms, its only my interpretation based on meditation and sutta readings.

Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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Mkoll
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Re: Missionaries in India: Conversion or Coercion?

Post by Mkoll » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:07 pm

Very helpful, thanks Dhammafriend.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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