Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm actually not directing anything at you specifically, but rather generally aiming at people that wish to rewrite the Buddhas teaching to fit their own view, if the shoe fits wear it.

Ever thought that might be what your doing?


Just a thought :thinking:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Jason wrote: The passage I posted above is one example where I think the psychological and cosmological aspects of becoming and rebirth are directly compared, illustrating their relationship, i.e., where rearising in an 'injurious world' is analogous to the experience of painful feelings (an aspect of mind) like beings in hell, suggesting to me that hell itself can also refer to an unpleasant mental state as much as it can a literal place one rearises:
Analogous to, certainly, but that's not the same as saying they are the same thing. I still don't see any evidence that the realms were intended as psychological states in the suttas. IMO it's like arguing that Hell is a metaphor, based on what the Bible says - it's possible to argue this case but it seems very tenuous and speculative.
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Jason wrote: While I wasn't so convinced of this at first, other suttas and the opinions of other translators/commentators have since convinced me that the psychological aspects aren't necessarily as divorced from the cosmological as many assume. One of the things that really got me seeing things this way is the fact that the term loka (world/realm) itself is often used as a metaphor for the five aggregates, the six sense spheres, and/or the internal world of fabricated experience .
It seems to me that in the suttas the cosmological and psychological are 2 sides of the same coin, and IMO attempting to divorce one from the other leads to misunderstanding - in any case I don't see the evidence for a purely psychological interpretation.
The use of "loka" is interesting, though in context it looks to me like a figure of speech meaning "my world" or "our world" - I think it can be viewed as descriptive of the human realm.
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Jason
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Jason »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Jason wrote: While I wasn't so convinced of this at first, other suttas and the opinions of other translators/commentators have since convinced me that the psychological aspects aren't necessarily as divorced from the cosmological as many assume. One of the things that really got me seeing things this way is the fact that the term loka (world/realm) itself is often used as a metaphor for the five aggregates, the six sense spheres, and/or the internal world of fabricated experience .
It seems to me that in the suttas the cosmological and psychological are 2 sides of the same coin, and IMO attempting to divorce one from the other leads to misunderstanding - in any case I don't see the evidence for a purely psychological interpretation.
The use of "loka" is interesting, though in context it looks to me like a figure of speech meaning "my world" or "our world" - I think it can be viewed as descriptive of the human realm.
I think we agree more than we disagree then. I think if you step back and read what I've said this entire thread, it's eminently clear that I'm not trying to divorce one from the other or proposing a purely psychological interpretation, but that I'm trying to show how they're both relevant, especially in places like AN 4.235.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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manas
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by manas »

Regarding the various planes, this talk by Bhante Anandajoti is really informative and entertaining. He explains in a very comprehensible way, how the various planes of existence are both psychological, and cosmological, 'realms':



I find this talk can give inspiration to put forth more effort into purifying one's generousity and virtue...especially, to at least keep those five precepts really purely. Human realm and above, fine; but
lower realms - best avoided... :shock:

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Ceisiwr »

lyndon taylor wrote:Because to believe the Buddha was talking figuratively, not literally when he talked at length, over and over about rebirth, other realms, conversation with devas etc etc, you would really have to be twisting around his words from what they plainly say, The Buddha wasn't a secular Buddhist, quite the opposite, why can't you just man up to you disagree with the Buddha, instead of trying to put your modern ideas in his mouth.......and try and make your ideas fit with his.

To be fair Jason isn't doing that at all, from his posts he is simply saying that "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.

I would say that's a fair assessment of what's in the suttas


Unless I'm misreading of course


Some good points btw Jason :)
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:... "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
But not as purely psychological. Not in the suttas anyway.
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by daverupa »

Could be that these are two ways of understanding life processes amongst dependent consequences; in any event the point seems to me to be coming to grips with idapaccayata sans ritualism, self-aggrandizement, and so forth. This is an individual effort that isn't assisted by comparing and contrasting metaphysical speculations.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:... "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
But not as purely psychological. Not in the suttas anyway.

There is both in the suttas
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Mkoll
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Mkoll »

daverupa wrote:This is an individual effort that isn't assisted by comparing and contrasting metaphysical speculations.
:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

I hope more people will understand this.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Aloka
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Aloka »

daverupa wrote:This is an individual effort that isn't assisted by comparing and contrasting metaphysical speculations.
Absolutely. :thumbsup:
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:... "rebirth" is put across as both psychological in nature as well as being real ontologically.
But not as purely psychological. Not in the suttas anyway.

There is both in the suttas
Show me a sutta which describes the realms as purely psychological states.
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:Could be that these are two ways of understanding life processes amongst dependent consequences; in any event the point seems to me to be coming to grips with idapaccayata sans ritualism, self-aggrandizement, and so forth.
Sure, but also without aversion to what the suttas seem to be describing.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Show me a sutta which describes the realms as purely psychological states.

I said there was both in the suttas :/ isn't that what you and Jason were saying as well?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Who created the heavenly and hell realms?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:Could be that these are two ways of understanding life processes amongst dependent consequences; in any event the point seems to me to be coming to grips with idapaccayata sans ritualism, self-aggrandizement, and so forth.
Sure, but also without aversion to what the suttas seem to be describing.

Why do you imply a different understanding entails aversion?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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