masturbation what's wrong?

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kc2dpt
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by kc2dpt » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:However, if a hinderance does not have a set unchanging nature, it does not necessarily have to hinder anything.
...
If a hinderance always hindered, you would never get free of it.
A hindrance is called a hindrance because it's function is to hinder. It hinders the arising of jhana. Always. The fact that a hindrance is dependently arisen means it doesn't necessarily have to arise. When this is, that is. When this isn't, that isn't.
"Herein, monks, a monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust."
One can certainly train to be mindful of lust as it arises. But this doesn't change the fact that lust hinders the arising of jhana. And none of this changes the fact that indulging in a sensual pleasure like masturbation is not the same thing as being mindful of sensual desire when it arises. Rather I would say the former obstructs the latter.

If one wants to claim otherwise, then I would think it is on that person to differentiate their view from the pernicious view of Arittha Formerly-of-the-Vulture-Killers in MN 22.

"The Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Arittha, that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when indulged in, are not genuine obstructions'?"

"Yes, indeed, lord. I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, and those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when indulged in are not genuine obstructions."

"Worthless man, from whom have you understood that Dhamma taught by me in such a way? Worthless man, haven't I in many ways described obstructive acts? And when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and spears... a snake' head: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp [of the Dhamma], have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."


That said, I believe tilt left the topic of this thread some time ago and that is causing confusion. Considering the OP never came back after their first post perhaps it doesn't matter if the thread wanders. Still, it would be nice if tilt would state clearly if he was changing the focus of the conversation.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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christopher:::
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by christopher::: » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:28 am

Chris wrote:Hello Tilt,
Tilt said: If a hinderance always hindered, you would never get free of it. A hinderance arises, a sensual thought arises, what happens?
For anyone not yet of perfect Sila ~ the odds are that you grasp it, get lost in day dreaming, perform unwholesome actions and thereby strengthen the underlying tendency to colour your thinking with greed and lust via the serial story playing on all forty-seven channels.
These channels have the two things in common. They never go off the air, and they all have the same lead actor ... the 'so precious' I.
Additionally, imbedded in the story are the justifications and excuses (some quite sophisticated) for the intentional actions of thought, word and deed, and their continuance.

metta
Chris
Well described, Chris.
tiltbillings wrote:
Chris wrote:Hello Tilt,
Tilt quoted: ...monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust . . . Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me
As this is the Masturbation what's wrong? thread. Are you maintaining that one can happily masturbate while thinking "there is lust in me" "there is sense-desire in me" and it is O.K. because you are mindful?
That might be an interesting thing to try.
Sounds like a justification disguised as an excuse...
A potential act of self-deception?

I see such things arise in my own mind and life almost daily.

It's very tiring...
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:51 am

christopher::: wrote:Hello Tilt,
Tilt quoted: ...monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust . . . Chris: Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me
As this is the Masturbation what's wrong? thread. Are you maintaining that one can happily masturbate while thinking "there is lust in me" "there is sense-desire in me" and it is O.K. because you are mindful?
I wrote:That might be an interesting thing to try.
="you"]Sounds like a justification disguised as an excuse...
A potential act of self-deception?

I see such things arise in my own mind and life almost daily.

It's very tiring...
Geez, you guys are rather grim, but then it is sex that is being discussed here, but not just sex but - gasp - masturbation - good old self abuse. My msg to Chris was a joke, son, a joke. As things go, matsurbation is pretty minimal, as long as we keep a healthy perspective on it.

http://www.wavsource.com/snds_2009-08-0 ... ay_off.wav
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlackBird
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:10 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Chris wrote:Hello Tilt,
Tilt quoted: ...monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust . . . Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me
As this is the Masturbation what's wrong? thread. Are you maintaining that one can happily masturbate while thinking "there is lust in me" "there is sense-desire in me" and it is O.K. because you are mindful?
That might be an interesting thing to try.
The citta can only be in one place at a time.

You can't be observing sense desire and engaging in it at the same time.

If one were to withdraw periodically from sense desire in order to observe it, one would still be spending more mind moments engaged in sense desire. One could never accomplish the goal of masturbation if one were to spend more mind moments observing sense desire than engaging in it.

Therefore one cannot justify engaging in sense desire on the grounds of observing it, and thus deriving some form of wisdom from it.
I've tried this all too many times.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:21 am

BlackBird wrote: The citta can only be in one place at a time.

You can't be observing sense desire and engaging in it at the same time.

If one were to withdraw periodically from sense desire in order to observe it, one would still be spending more mind moments engaged in sense desire. One could never accomplish the goal of masturbation if one were to spend more mind moments observing sense desire than engaging in it.

Therefore one cannot justify engaging in sense desire on the grounds of observing it, and thus deriving some form of wisdom from it.
I've tried this all too many times.
If what you say is true, then how can one be mindful of sense desire?

As our famously disgraced and now quite dead former Vice-President Spiro Agnew once delicately said: "All of you with tightened sinews and constricted sphincters can relax," I am not justifying engaging in anything.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:If what you say is true, then how can one be mindful of sense desire?
Look ma, no hands.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:28 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:If what you say is true, then how can one be mindful of sense desire?
Look ma, no hands.
Yeah, and most sex happerns between the ears.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:37 am

This thread is giving me the giggles, it's just that silly sometimes. Too many double meanings.

I think it's a slippery slope to introduce the idea that mindfulness during the course of engaging in unwholesome mindstates somehow mitigates them. I don't think that's what you mean, but that's how it sounds. I think what you're really trying to say is, yeah, we're all human and we all experience hinderances, and we all have to come to grips with them, and being mindful of them is an important tool.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:43 am

tiltbillings wrote: If what you say is true, then how can one be mindful of sense desire?
Well, I'm not sure exactly how it works, but to be engaged in a passion is not to be mindful, and due to past mind moment of mindfulness, mindfulness is liable to arise somewhere a long the way. Whether we shun the mindfulness, or welcome it is another story.

With regards to masturbation, one must be engaged in the task in order to bring it to fruition.
If one is truely oberving the passion arise and fall then one cannot be engaged in it.

It's much the same as when you become mindful of anger arising in your mind. Once you're mindful of it you're not longer engaged in it, but if when anger crops up again, in the next mind moment - as it is prone to do - and one is not mindful, then one becomes engaged in the anger again, torn this way and that by it's burning flames.

So you can direct the mind towards a passion and engage in it
Or you can be mindful of it, quite withdrawn from it.

But you cannot do both at the same time. That's what I'm trying to say.


Have a good one
:anjali:
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:49 am

Jechbi wrote:This thread is giving me the giggles,
It should.
it's just that silly sometimes.
It is.
Too many double meanings.
When you take the literal meaning of masturbation as "hand-defilement," the possibilities of paronomasia increases greatly; there is much more to gets one's hand on for one's enjoyment (of playing with words).
I think it's a slippery slope to introduce the idea that mindfulness during the course of engaging in unwholesome mindstates somehow mitigates them. I don't think that's what you mean, but that's how it sounds.
As a joke in response to Chris' msg, I suggested that, but what is unwholesome? Eating high cocao content dark chocolate? Getting engrossed in a good novel? Getting a thrill from a roller-coaster? Engaging in sports? Getting a buzz from heavy excercise? The company of good friends? All therse things gives one pleasure, and we want to do them again, so why when it comes to sex, is it different?
I think what you're really trying to say is, yeah, we're all human and we all experience hinderances, and we all have to come to grips with them, and being mindful of them is an important tool.
A hindrance, when we are truly mindful of it, is it a hindrance? Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:02 am

Well, I think in that case you're talking about sampajanna.

From the Mahasatipatthana Sutta:
Again, a monk, when going foward or back, is clearly aware of what he is doing, in looking forward or back he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in bending and stretching he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in carrying his inner and outer robe and his bowl he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in eating, drinking, chewing and savouring he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in passing excrement or urine he is clearly aware of what he is doing, in walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep and waking up, in speaking or staying silent, he is clearly aware of what he is doing. So he abides contemplating the body as body internally, externally, both internally and externally ... And he abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world. And that, monks, is how a monk abides contemplating body as body.
I don't see how that would ever lead to ejaculation.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Ben » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:08 am

Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote:Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?
Its an interesting idea. When i am beset by the hindrance of restlessness, I am aware that I am assuaged by the sleepy-bye-byes yet it keeps me from keeping my attention focused on the object of awareness. It requires herculean effort. And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is. Pardon my lack of references - its from what I think is going on based on my own experience.
Kind regards

Ben
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by BlackBird » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:10 am

tiltbillings wrote: A hindrance, when we are truly mindful of it, is it a hindrance? Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?
Reflecting upon it, yes.
But how much reflection can you do at the time?

Kilesas tend to take control of us, much in the same way that a pirate takes over a ship.

If we were really bent on using the kilesas as an object for vipassana, then we'd only need to have engaged in them once. We wouldn't need these constant 'refresher' courses.

I am not in control of my passions, they are in control of me.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:12 am

Ben wrote:And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is.
Although by the same token I think it's very informative to sit with this situation, to just sit and be there with the realization that in that moment one seems helpless.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:28 am

Ben wrote:Hi Tilt
tiltbillings wrote:Or is it an object that that can be an occasion for vipassana, insight?
Its an interesting idea. When i am beset by the hindrance of restlessness, I am aware that I am assuaged by the sleepy-bye-byes yet it keeps me from keeping my attention focused on the object of awareness. It requires herculean effort. And at the moment one's attention moves from the object of mindful attention to realising one is falling asleep while cross-legged, what is really going on? Is it really sati? I might be wrong but I don't think it is. Pardon my lack of references - its from what I think is going on based on my own experience.
Kind regards

Ben
You might want to try a 3 month retreat. Mindfulness, attention, can be of one's feeling of lust for the pretty girl two cushions over and one down who just sneezed, bringing thoughts of her to mind. One can sit quietly with a great deal of turmoil. To use figurative speech, it is possible to step back, to put some space around what is going on, which is a way of speaking of mindfulness, attention. And here I am talking about mindfulness accompanied by a pretty steady factor of concentration. Anything that comes into awarenress has the potential of being a basis for insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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