Arahants

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rasko
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Re: Arahants

Post by Rasko » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:30 pm

Ajahn Jayasaro gives some comments about enlightenment/arahants/Boowa from Thai Forest point of view in this video:


What I remember from listening to some translations of Ajahn Maha Boowa's talks to bhikkhus, they were more about sati-pañña than samadhi or jhanas. Samadhi was used to "sharpen the knife of pañña" or something like that.

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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:41 pm

So you haven't read the book Kirk, and yet you're prepared to sit here and suggest, in essence that I am slandering a great master, a master of whose doctrine you have scant knowledge of it would seem, considering your inability to produce anything other than accusations.

I have stated more than once that I find Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings to be eternalistic, and because eternalism is stated by the Buddha to be a wrong view, it's not my cup of tea. Having said that, I think Venerable Maha Boowa was a very acomplished monk, who obviously had a great understanding and personal experience of Jhana. But as to his descriptions of other monks attainments of arahantship, they are dubious at best, and if at some point - You actually were to read the book, I imagine you may share my doubts.

Look, I met a monk in Sri Lanka who to me clearly seemded to possess the ability to read my mind. The incidents were far too uncanny. I'm not one to suggest that these things don't exist, so having read the book, I didn't look upon every appearance of devas or magical happening to be exaggeration, but when it got down to the meat of things, there were many aspects of the doctrine that just did not stack up with the Buddhas teachings, neither did the section where he gains enlightenment and all the magic happens once again, the prophetic dreams all that jazz. It's just not how it happens.

You ask me if I consider my assessment might be wrong. Well, my suggestion is that you go read the book, and then ask yourself if the opinion you form from reading it might be wrong, because I'm fairly certain that it will impart doubts in you.

There was a time several years ago when I believed in the book, and all it's stories. My view has since matured, in ways that make me feel more or less certain when it comes to the subject of eternalism and annihilationism, and which teachings give off their rather unique scent.



Case closed for now, all the best Kirk and absolutely no hard feelings from me :)

Metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:55 pm

BlackBird wrote:So you haven't read the book Kirk, and yet you're prepared to sit here and suggest, in essence that I am slandering a great master, a master of whose doctrine you have scant knowledge of it would seem, considering your inability to produce anything other than accusations.

I have stated more than once that I find Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings to be eternalistic, and because eternalism is stated by the Buddha to be a wrong view, it's not my cup of tea. Having said that, I think Venerable Maha Boowa was a very acomplished monk, who obviously had a great understanding and personal experience of Jhana. But as to his descriptions of other monks attainments of arahantship, they are dubious at best, and if at some point - You actually were to read the book, I imagine you may share my doubts.

Case closed for now, all the best Kirk and absolutely no hard feelings from me :)

Metta
Jack
I have not read the entirety of that particular book, as I said, but I am quite familiar with Ajahn Boowa's recorded teachings, of which I have read a decent amount, more than enough to be reasonably well-versed in Ajahn Boowa's perspective, certainly enough to far exceed your accusation of "scant knowledge."

All you are doing is proclaiming that Ajahn Boowa's teachings are eternalistic. You have not presented anything in particular which you are claiming is such. And yet you are asking me to prove they are not eternalistic. So instead, I would suggest that you produce the teaching from Ajahn Boowa which you are claiming is "eternalism."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:58 pm

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote:So you haven't read the book Kirk, and yet you're prepared to sit here and suggest, in essence that I am slandering a great master, a master of whose doctrine you have scant knowledge of it would seem, considering your inability to produce anything other than accusations.

I have stated more than once that I find Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings to be eternalistic, and because eternalism is stated by the Buddha to be a wrong view, it's not my cup of tea. Having said that, I think Venerable Maha Boowa was a very acomplished monk, who obviously had a great understanding and personal experience of Jhana. But as to his descriptions of other monks attainments of arahantship, they are dubious at best, and if at some point - You actually were to read the book, I imagine you may share my doubts.

Case closed for now, all the best Kirk and absolutely no hard feelings from me :)

Metta
Jack
I have not read the entirety of that particular book, as I said, but I am quite familiar with Ajahn Boowa's recorded teachings, of which I have read a decent amount, more than enough to be reasonably well-versed in Ajahn Boowa's perspective, certainly enough to far exceed your accusation of "scant knowledge."

All you are doing is proclaiming that Ajahn Boowa's teachings are eternalistic. You have not presented anything in particular which you are claiming is such. And yet you are asking me to prove they are not eternalistic. So instead, I would suggest that you produce the teaching from Ajahn Boowa which you are claiming is "eternalism."
I gave the whole book as my evidence, but you haven't read it.

So I will reiterate that I think you should read it, and then we shall see whether there is still a disagreement between us, I am of an optimistic nature. :)

They are taking their deep meditation to be nibbana and it's a mistake.


That is all.
metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:49 pm

BlackBird wrote:They are taking their deep meditation to be nibbana and it's a mistake.
If the above is meant to be a summary of what Ven. Sujato is communicating in that video, I think it does not represent what he is saying at all.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:02 pm

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote:They are taking their deep meditation to be nibbana and it's a mistake.
If the above is meant to be a summary of what Ven. Sujato is communicating in that video, I think it does not represent what he is saying at all.
With all the care and concern I give to grammar, do you not think I would have added a colon in such an instance? I rather think this is an instance of wishful thinking on your behalf.

I posted the video because It gives a decent summary of some of the doctrinal problems I have with Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings, teachings I feel are in clear contradiction with that of the Buddha. But as is becoming somewhat of a theme here, you have chosen to address something quite tangential to the topic at hand.

I will be interested to know if your view changes upon reading the book, please inform me should you decide to read it :)
Now I really must be off to bed, so good night.

with metta and good will
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

floating_abu
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Re: Arahants

Post by floating_abu » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:10 pm

tiltbillings wrote:it is probably just as well that arahants remain unknown.
Agreed, hiding seems a much better proposition IMO.

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kirk5a
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Re: Arahants

Post by kirk5a » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:17 pm

BlackBird wrote:With all the care and concern I give to grammar, do you not think I would have added a colon in such an instance? I rather think this is an instance of wishful thinking on your behalf.

I posted the video because It gives a decent summary of some of the doctrinal problems I have with Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings, teachings I feel are in clear contradiction with that of the Buddha. But as is becoming somewhat of a theme here, you have chosen to address something quite tangential to the topic at hand.
Except there is the section where Ven. Sujato acknowledges the possibility that there is some samadhi associated with enlightenment, that can be accessed by an arahant, known by those who have "ended the defilements" that is being referred to with the "original mind" notion. In which case, those would be actual arahants, and it would neither be a "mistake" nor a "doctrinal problem."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Viscid
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Re: Arahants

Post by Viscid » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:08 pm

Blackbird wrote:Look, I met a monk in Sri Lanka who to me clearly seemded to possess the ability to read my mind. The incidents were far too uncanny.
It's a shame how impossible it is to talk about these sorts of abilities without the discussion degrading into nonsense. I'd really like to know the full story behind this incident, and how you think one comes to possess such an ability, how/why it works, etc.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Mr Man
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Re: Arahants

Post by Mr Man » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:47 pm

I see the biography of Ajahn Mun has been re-translated by Bhikkhu Dick Sïlaratano the version I have is translated by Siri Buddhasukh. I wonder if the feel is very different? The new translation has an introduction that is worth a read (if interested). It gives some background and context.

http://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/engl ... graphy.pdf

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BlackBird
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Re: Arahants

Post by BlackBird » Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:26 am

kirk5a wrote:
BlackBird wrote:With all the care and concern I give to grammar, do you not think I would have added a colon in such an instance? I rather think this is an instance of wishful thinking on your behalf.

I posted the video because It gives a decent summary of some of the doctrinal problems I have with Venerable Maha Boowa's teachings, teachings I feel are in clear contradiction with that of the Buddha. But as is becoming somewhat of a theme here, you have chosen to address something quite tangential to the topic at hand.
Except there is the section where Ven. Sujato acknowledges the possibility that there is some samadhi associated with enlightenment, that can be accessed by an arahant, known by those who have "ended the defilements" that is being referred to with the "original mind" notion. In which case, those would be actual arahants, and it would neither be a "mistake" nor a "doctrinal problem."
That was merely one of the suggestions, I prefer the other more logical suggestions, i.e. that such monks have gotten bogged down in their jhanas and mistaken the one pointed mind for Nibbana. But rather than responding to me here, how about you just read the book that Mr. Man has posted here in this thread and see for yourself. I am going to re-read it also, and perhaps then we can have a reasoned discussion on the finer points of this 'original mind' stuff.
Viscid wrote:
Blackbird wrote:Look, I met a monk in Sri Lanka who to me clearly seemded to possess the ability to read my mind. The incidents were far too uncanny.
It's a shame how impossible it is to talk about these sorts of abilities without the discussion degrading into nonsense. I'd really like to know the full story behind this incident, and how you think one comes to possess such an ability, how/why it works, etc.
I'm not sure whether I want to publicly discuss this, but I would be happy to talk to you in private about it, and anyone else for that matter.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

vishuroshan
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Re: Arahants

Post by vishuroshan » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:11 am

VEN. ARAHAT VAJIRA BUDDHI is an ARAHAT who lives in sri lanka . http://www.pathtonibbana.com

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cooran
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Re: Arahants

Post by cooran » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:28 am

Really vishuroshan? How do you know this person is an Arahant?

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Mkoll
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Re: Arahants

Post by Mkoll » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:02 am

cooran wrote:Really vishuroshan? How do you know this person is an Arahant?

With metta,
Chris
The only way he possibly could (or anyone possibly could for that matter) know someone is an Arahant is if he had the supernormal power of knowing another's mind. Otherwise it is at best an educated guess, and at worst a cult of personality.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

vishuroshan
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Re: Arahants

Post by vishuroshan » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:58 pm

My dear friends,

i have been visitng this monk from a very longtime and i know about his purity. i didnt come to this conclusion just by listning to his dhamma. after seeing him, his appearance, skin colour, his wisdom, his knowledge, the way he reacts for certains things. i came to this conclusion. i have never seen such a person in my life. one day one person has taken a photo of this monk, and there was a huge flash light appeared on his forhead/head. i also beleive that he can attain the CESSATION STATE(without breathing) NIRODHA SAMAPATTI. he's the most powerful person on earth. he has read our minds also.

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