masturbation what's wrong?

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cooran
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by cooran » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:01 am

Hello Tilt,
Tilt quoted: ...monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust . . . Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me
As this is the Masturbation what's wrong? thread. Are you maintaining that one can happily masturbate while thinking "there is lust in me" "there is sense-desire in me" and it is O.K. because you are mindful?

metta
Chris
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:08 am

Chris wrote:Hello Tilt,
Tilt quoted: ...monk knows the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust . . . Herein, monks, when sense-desire is present, a monk knows, "There is sense-desire in me
As this is the Masturbation what's wrong? thread. Are you maintaining that one can happily masturbate while thinking "there is lust in me" "there is sense-desire in me" and it is O.K. because you are mindful?
That might be an interesting thing to try.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:10 am

Macavity wrote: This would be possible according to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma, which treats mindfulness as an ethically variable mental factor, but not according to Theravada Abhidhamma (nor in reality) where sati is invariably a beautiful mental factor and hindrances invariably hinder its arising.
Can we continue this in the Abhidhamma forum?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2051" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I fear that "Modern Theravada" may have Abhidhamma aversion...

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:13 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Macavity wrote: This would be possible according to the Sarvastivada Abhidharma, which treats mindfulness as an ethically variable mental factor, but not according to Theravada Abhidhamma (nor in reality) where sati is invariably a beautiful mental factor and hindrances invariably hinder its arising.
Can we continue this in the Abhidhamma forum?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2051" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I fear that "Modern Theravada" may have Abhidhamma aversion...
Modern Theravada is not an anti-Abhidhamma zone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:16 am

One thing that occurs to me is that the passage from that sutta is preceded by this:
Satipatthana Sutta wrote:And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating mind as mind?
So I've always assumed this was an instruction for contemplation practice. Regardless, if one understands mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust, and if one understands mind unaffected by lust as mind unaffected by lust, then I personally don't see how a person could come to this conclusion:
tiltbillings wrote:... if a hinderance does not have a set unchanging nature, it does not necessarily have to hinder anything.
Because that statement seems to contradict the whole notion of MN 10, which states that one understands mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:27 am

Because that statement seems to contradict the whole notion of MN 10, which states that one understands mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust.
But if we understand, see mindfully, a mind affected by lust, what happens?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:29 am

tiltbillings wrote: Modern Theravada is not an anti-Abhidhamma zone.
Perhaps not, but I have started a topic here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2051" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
about some of the issues that it seems to me would be off-topic on this thread...

Mike

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:But if we understand, see mindfully, a mind affected by lust, what happens?
We recognize that the mind is thus affected, and we recognize its nature as anicca. That's how I'd answer the question, any way. Would you answer differently? I think there are probably different legitimate ways of answering ...
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:42 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But if we understand, see mindfully, a mind affected by lust, what happens?
We recognize that the mind is thus affected, and we recognize its nature as anicca. That's how I'd answer the question, any way. Would you answer differently? I think there are probably different legitimate ways of answering ...
But what happens to the lust?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:But what happens to the lust?
I suppose that will depend on the underlying fuel.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:52 am

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But what happens to the lust?
I suppose that will depend on the underlying fuel.
If there is really mindfullness: nibbuti.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:01 am

Is that the test of true sati? That it conditions extinguishing of lust all by itself? Because in my experience, sati does not exhaust the nutriments but merely enables one to observe their fruition and be aware of what is occuring. But then my experience of sati might well be flawed ...

But sati is obviously a crucial factor.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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tiltbillings
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:29 am

Jechbi wrote:Is that the test of true sati? That it conditions extinguishing of lust all by itself? Because in my experience, sati does not exhaust the nutriments but merely enables one to observe their fruition and be aware of what is occuring. But then my experience of sati might well be flawed ...
Being mindful of what is arising changes the situation.
That it conditions extinguishing of lust all by itself?
It does not condition extinguishing of lust; rather, it shifts the perspective of lust, depriving it of it is impulse, which in turn deprives it of it fuel. It is interesting to experience the shift of a mind raging with "I want to do the ins and outs" to cool, attentive awareness. Also, there is a point where it does not matter what the content of experience is: it is just rising and falling, anicca, empty.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Thanavuddho
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Thanavuddho » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:33 am

Hello Individual and Dhammabodhi,

Individual wrote:
Dhammabodhi wrote:
Many monks have wet dreams when they indulge in some types of food or drink, like cheese or coffee in the afternoon.
Is there any particular reason behind this? What other kind of foodstuff have such effects?

Thank you
Dhammabodhi
Some of it might be superstition, but certain foods are capable of stimulating libido:
http://www.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_2 ... e_tip.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure about the science behind this, the suggestion that I have received is to test different types of food and see what is good for meditation. I don't think there is any fixed diet that everyone should eat. It depends on a person. This is a refined practice for those who are meditating. Some food induce sleepiness, some food induce restlessness. Some food induce anger, some lust...

There is something to be learned from the yoga traditions in regards to different types of food. I'm not an expert on this, so don't ask me.
With coffee, the possible sexual side effects may stem from the caffeine, but I don't know why drinking coffee at a certain time would have a distinct effect.
The Vinaya prevents monks from eating in the afternoon, as you know. Same rule applies for those who are keeping the 8-precepts. Coffee is allowed as a "tonic" or "medicine" in the afternoon. When you are living in a very quit and restrained way, coffee can be very powerful stimulant. Cheese is allowed in some monasterys in the afternoon. It's very sensual... the lust inducing effects of cheese, chocolate, sugar and coffee are well document amongst the monastic community. As I said, some people have problems with them, some don't.
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Jechbi
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Post by Jechbi » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Being mindful of what is arising changes the situation.
I agree that with mindfulness, the situation changes.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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