the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: ....not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana
:strawman:

Hardly
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: ....not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana
:strawman:

Hardly
I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.
It's implied by some posts
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nekete
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by nekete »

clw_uk wrote:
Seemingly true, but at the same time the Buddha made strict rules that made it much harder to eat meat and eat a lot of meat, so obviously the buddha was absolutely not encouraging meat eating, otherwise he would have made no rules at all, since he made it much harder to acquire and eat as much meat, one has to assume that the buddha obviously believed it was better to eat less or no meat, for instance I can't possibly imagine the buddha complaining he wasn't getting enough meat, would that pro meat eating crowd could be so enlightened.

Of course, the point is not killing and also not holding a deluded view that abstention from meat leads to nibbana
wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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clw_uk wrote:

I can't recall anyone arguing that abstention from meat leads to nibbana.
It's implied by some posts
It's hard to say what's implied. How about focussing on Theravada teachings and practices which seem to be relevant to the issue? For example the first precept, modern application of the 3-fold rule, butchery as wrong livelihood, developing metta for all beings, etc.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

nekete wrote: wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?
I'd feel like a hypocrite if I bought meat. I'm a Buddhist so I'm not going to kill animals or butcher them, but I'd be expecting somebody else to do it - it doesn't feel right to me.
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Spiny Norman wrote:
nekete wrote: wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?
I'd feel like a hypocrite if I bought meat. I'm a Buddhist so I'm not going to kill animals or butcher them, but I'd be expecting somebody else to do it - it doesn't feel right to me.
But aren't many or most herbivores going to be eaten by some predators anyway? It is their fate, and it sucks. :weep: Samsara is dukkha.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?

Ideally no one should kill, however if someone had invited you for a meal and offers you left over meat then there is no harm in eating it, since it was going in the bin anyway. In fact to reject it because of the "idealism" of being a vegetarian would be more unskilful than eating the meat, since it would be clinging to rites and rituals. You would be acting out of aversion and delusion


Hence why the Buddha ate meat and allowed his monks to do so, but forbade them from killing or having animals killed for them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Of course a easy way out of all this is for humans to develop lab grown meat


No animals killed and all the nutrition, everyone's happy
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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clw_uk wrote:Ideally no one should kill, however if someone had invited you for a meal and offers you left over meat then there is no harm in eating it, since it was going in the bin anyway. In fact to reject it because of the "idealism" of being a vegetarian would be more unskilful than eating the meat, since it would be clinging to rites and rituals. You would be acting out of aversion and delusion .
There are people who are starving and would love to eat anything, and yet some modern and affluent people can just throw away food because they are morally against it. Terrible waste!

I've probably been raised not in a rich environment because I've heard phrases such as "Finish your plate! Kids are starving in Africa". Sometimes some people can't be too picky about food or throw it away.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Ideally no one should kill, however if someone had invited you for a meal and offers you left over meat then there is no harm in eating it, since it was going in the bin anyway. In fact to reject it because of the "idealism" of being a vegetarian would be more unskilful than eating the meat, since it would be clinging to rites and rituals. You would be acting out of aversion and delusion .
There are people who are starving and would love to eat anything, and yet some modern and affluent people can just throw away food because they are morally against it. Terrible waste!

I've probably been raised pretty poor because I've heard phrases such as "Finish your plate! Kids are starving in Africa".


That's very true

Unfortunately the capitalist system is terribly wasteful and inefficient

I did read somewhere that there is actually enough food available to give every humans 3000 calories, and so make us all fat

Sadly I can't cite it though
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

clw_uk wrote:
wow, really? is it true? the point is not killing? So the animals who are on the dishes are served alive?

Ideally no one should kill, however if someone had invited you for a meal and offers you left over meat then there is no harm in eating it, since it was going in the bin anyway. In fact to reject it because of the "idealism" of being a vegetarian would be more unskilful than eating the meat, since it would be clinging to rites and rituals..
I was a vegetarian long before I was a Buddhist and I've disliked the taste of meat since I was a child. I could hardly have been 'clinging to rites and rituals' if I rejected it when I was at Primary school.

:)
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Aloka wrote:I was a vegetarian long before I was a Buddhist and I've disliked the taste of meat since I was a child. I could hardly have been 'clinging to rites and rituals' if I rejected it when I was at Primary school.
You are so lucky that you could choose what to eat rather than to eat or go hungry. Not every person has the luxury to eat what they want and what tastes good.
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Alex123 wrote:
Aloka wrote:I was a vegetarian long before I was a Buddhist and I've disliked the taste of meat since I was a child. I could hardly have been 'clinging to rites and rituals' if I rejected it when I was at Primary school.
You are so lucky that you could choose what to eat rather than to eat or go hungry. Not every person has the luxury to eat what they want and what tastes good.
Who said I was allowed to choose ? My father went crazy when I retched at the taste of meat - and I wasn't offered an alternative.

.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

clw_uk wrote: I did read somewhere that there is actually enough food available to give every humans 3000 calories, and so make us all fat
Especially on a vegetarian agricultural system since you wouldn't have all that grain being used to feed cattle. There would be less cattle bred and more grain for humans. But you're right, there is also a distribution problem.
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