the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:40 am

lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
Actually, start reading from here on: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16758 It is worth a read.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:41 am

clw_uk wrote:Tilt me old man have I not stated before, it's not about rebirth or no rebirth
If you say so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
Actually, start reading from here on: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16758 It is worth a read.


Notice that someone changes ditthi, while another remains fixed and immobile ;)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:00 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:honestly tilt, it seems like in this and other threads he's more interested in furthering his own views, than the Buddha's views, hence my question. As I've pointed out before he quotes Buddhist scholars only when they seem to back his arguement, and has little interest in following anything else they say.
Actually, start reading from here on: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 380#p16211

Craig picks this up here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 420#p16735

and just in case you don't get to this: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 440#p16758 It is worth a read.


Notice that someone changes ditthi, while another remains fixed and immobile
I am glad you recognize your fixed, immobile line of thought. You have someone as learned and practiced as Ajahn Dhammanando neatly demolishing your position, and you just go blithely on as if nothing was really said at all that would contradict your point of view. It is an amazing sight to behold.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:03 am

You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:09 am

clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:09 am

clw_uk wrote:
In the First Noble Truth, Buddha taught from simple to more subtle. The subtle part was "in short, clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha". The dukkha is in the clinging. Regarding 'birth is dukkha', this simply means birth of a child is dukkha. For the mother it is dukkha and for the helpless child it is dukkha. However, if a mother & parents can practise non-attachment, birth, just like aging, sickness & death, will not be dukkha. Dukkha is attachment.

You are completely correct, but expanding on my previous post, he is describing a cycle, if rebirth is taking out then the whole of dependent origination, which can be reguarded as expounding further on the 2nd noble truth, falls apart. Dependent origination is a self perpetuating system (until liberation). If nothing carries on past death then death would be reguarded as its end not liberation.

Going back to another point on birth, yes in one sense birth is dukkha due to suffering involved in the birth process, but birth itself still needs craving behind it as all dukkha has craving behind it. Craving must have been there in past for dukkha to have arrisen in the first place, for the dukkha of birth to have arrisen

What about the infant, if you take out rebirth from previous life then the infant in effect has no attachment/craving that could correlate to the dukkha or rebirth for it is a new being into exsistence, but if birth is dukkha then it has to have craving behind it at the individual level, therefore birth wouldnt be included in the 1st noble truth if there was just one birth as it would be at odds with the 2nd truth, that dukkha arises due to an indivuals craving/attachment.

Just to note i dont have a firm belief in rebirth as i have not experienced anything as of yet to verify it i just have confidence and i also accept that my reasoning may be at fault.

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Craig :twothumbsup:
Taken from the first few pages of this debate, four years ago

What a dogmatist I am :jumping:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.

Of course rebirth is there, as it's pragmatic


I didn't appreciate this before.

However you can still practice with or without such a taint
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:15 am

You did not supply the date of this statement. It could be from your very early period. Also, it is not very clearly written, but it does seem to be an improvement over your anti-literal rebirth stance, at least acknowledging literal rebirth is taught in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:16 am

Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:You mean when ajahn demolished a poition I had nearly 4 years ago? Really relevant :/
So, you have changed your position and your style of debate? So, you no longer reject literal rebirth as being taught in the suttas. Now, notice: I did not say that you believe in literal rebirth; rather, you simply acknowledge the fact that literal rebirth is, in fact, taught in the suttas. That is, indeed, quite a shift for you.

Of course rebirth is there, as it's pragmatic


I didn't appreciate this before.

However you can still practice with or without such a taint
Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:17 am

clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.



Page 5, last post
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:20 am

clw_uk wrote:Page 6, four pages down


Some gems from me on page 5 as well at the bottom
Okay, this is from your very early period before you went all Buddhadasa (or at least as your and your cohorts interpreted him) on this forum, where no evidence could, in anyway, count against your position. Interestingly, you now have reverted back to your early position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

Taint. Oh, yes, but "taint" may also be true as to the way the world works.

And so might be materialism however the point is of course the affect said view has on a "person".
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:21 am

clw_uk wrote:
clw_uk wrote:I think rebirth is expounded quite well in the 4 Noble Truths.

In the first truth the buddha says:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."


The Second Truth states the the origin of dukka is craving

Therefore if birth is dukka then its origin is craving

If Craving Condtions birth then there must have been an existence before where there was craving and that same craving will lead to more dukkha in the future, i.e birth.



Page 5, last post
And then you denied that, spending a great deal of time denying any evidence to that showed that your denial was wrong. Goodness.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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