A question about one of the 5 percepts

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:57 pm

daverupa wrote: Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.
Of course, which is why I said "presumably" and quoted a sutta from the Buddha on the matter, which seemed quite clear...

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by daverupa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:04 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote: Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.
Of course, which is why I said "presumably" and quoted a sutta from the Buddha on the matter, which seemed quite clear...

:anjali:
Mike
I had wondered whether that quote, since it only discussed kamma, was liable to being misunderstood, that's all.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5794
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by Aloka » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:06 pm

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
villkorkarma wrote: So how could an arahant be killed?or raped i was thinking.
Presumably because of past kamma.
Careful, lest that amount to a form of determinism.
Also check SN 36.21
Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

..and AN 4.77 : Unconjecturable
The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:19 pm

Dave, Aloka,

I appreciate your concern about accuracy, but did either of you take the time to carefully read the sutta that I referred to and quoted from?
The Buddha wrote:... But (perhaps) the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him earlier, or the evil kamma producing his suffering was done by him later, or wrong view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. ...
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 07#p273634
It's not suggesting a definitive, obvious, cause-and-effect. In fact, quite the opposite. That's why I chose it, because it already has that balance to it.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by daverupa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:28 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Dave, Aloka,

I appreciate your concern about accuracy, but did either of you take the time to carefully read the sutta that I referred to and quoted from?
Yes indeed. But the Sivaka Sutta kept running through my head.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5794
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by Aloka » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:08 pm

mikenz66 wrote:

I appreciate your concern about accuracy, but did either of you take the time to carefully read the sutta that I referred to and quoted from?
Yes I did, thanks, Mike....but does that mean I'm not allowed to mention any other sutta ?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:48 pm

I guess it's possible to have a reading of the suttas that minimises the role of kamma. Obviously kamma is not the only cause of things, but I don't think it's something that should be minimised.

I found one of the suttas that is perhaps more relevant, because it deals with Pelindivacca, an Arahant and his past kamma has an effect on him:
http://www.what-buddha-said.net/library ... vaccha.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://suttacentral.net/ud3.6/en
Then the Gracious One, after applying his mind to venerable Pilindivaccha’s previous lives, addressed the monks, saying: “You should not be offended, monks, at the monk Vaccha, it is not with hatred on the inside, monks, that Vaccha accosts the monks with words of contempt. For the monk Vaccha, monks, for five hundred lives has been reborn in a brāhmaṇa family without interruption, for a long time he has been one who has accosted others with words of contempt, because of this Vaccha accosted the monks with words of contempt.”
I can't yet find a specific reference in the suttas to deaths of Arahants such as Maha Moggalana, only a summary of the Commentary: http://www.what-buddha-said.net/library ... ana_th.htm

:anjali:
Mike

villkorkarma
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by villkorkarma » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:21 pm

Does it not lead to a big ego If I hit someone or is it depending on whom I hit?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

villkorkarma
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:43 pm

Re: A question about one of the 5 percepts

Post by villkorkarma » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:17 pm

Mkoll wrote:psychological pressure
What is that?
one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], paul, SarathW, Yahoo [Bot] and 107 guests