What a great thread !

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:33 am

Dan74 wrote:
Perhaps it is simply a matter of personalities. Some people may start off broad, loose and new-agey and then develop deep practice and discipline without losing an intuitive intimation of the overarching simplicity and commonality hinted at by the great mystics. Others may start off strict and narrow and through sincere dedicated practice loosen their grip and broaden their outlook in a genuine appreciation of the commonality within the diversity of spiritual paths.
Commonality this way or that, but but there is a point at which commonality is too broad, too vague to have any real meaning, though it does feel good.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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retrofuturist
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:03 am

Greetings Tilt,

I think that's true but it's always worth remembering that people come to the Dhamma in different ways through different doors.

If people are standing in the new-agey fluffy doorway, do we wish to invite them in, or do we ask them to leave?

People are at where people are at... we need not expect commonality.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:36 am

retrofuturist wrote: People are at where people are at... we need not expect commonality.
Umm... Isn't that what Tilt keeps saying? :thinking:

He has specifically argued against commonality. It's those "people standing at the fluffy doorway" that are saying that "all paths are the same..."

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
If people are standing in the new-agey fluffy doorway, do we wish to invite them in, or do we ask them to leave?
If a person is standing in the doorway of the Dhamma with fluffy bunny, new-agey, it's-all-one notions, "Please come in. I have been expecting you. Please feel free to look around, to ask questions." One need not compromise the Dhamma in teaching it, though one can be skillful in it presentation.

On forums such as this, fluffy bunny, new agey it's-all-oneism are going to meet differing responses. My feelings about this are if it is a motivation to practice, then good, but an exploration of Dhamma, Truth, also means being open to the possibility that things might be a bit different from what one expects or wants them to be, and open to the possibility that that can be uncomfortable.

We can celebrate commonalities (and what seems to be commonalities), but we should be careful not to assume they more than they are.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:43 am

Greetings Tilt,

Agreed - well said.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Dan74
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by Dan74 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Perhaps it is simply a matter of personalities. Some people may start off broad, loose and new-agey and then develop deep practice and discipline without losing an intuitive intimation of the overarching simplicity and commonality hinted at by the great mystics. Others may start off strict and narrow and through sincere dedicated practice loosen their grip and broaden their outlook in a genuine appreciation of the commonality within the diversity of spiritual paths.
Commonality this way or that, but but there is a point at which commonality is too broad, too vague to have any real meaning, though it does feel good.
Only when it is taken as an idea. When it is the experience, it is very useful in that it strips yet another layer of labels and reification.

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:57 am

Dan74 wrote: Only when it is taken as an idea. When it is the experience, it is very useful in that it strips yet another layer of labels and reification.
Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation, which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Dan74
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by Dan74 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:05 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Only when it is taken as an idea. When it is the experience, it is very useful in that it strips yet another layer of labels and reification.
Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation, which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.
I'd rephrase it to say the problem is with expectations rather than with experience. Experience is all there is.

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tiltbillings
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:10 am

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Only when it is taken as an idea. When it is the experience, it is very useful in that it strips yet another layer of labels and reification.
Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation, which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.
I'd rephrase it to say the problem is with expectations rather than with experience. Experience is all there is.
And expereience can be colored by one's expectations. It is why the first to factors of paticcasamuppada are ignorance and kamma-formations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by christopher::: » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:28 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
If people are standing in the new-agey fluffy doorway, do we wish to invite them in, or do we ask them to leave?
If a person is standing in the doorway of the Dhamma with fluffy bunny, new-agey, it's-all-one notions, "Please come in. I have been expecting you. Please feel free to look around, to ask questions." One need not compromise the Dhamma in teaching it, though one can be skillful in it presentation.

On forums such as this, fluffy bunny, new agey it's-all-oneism are going to meet differing responses. My feelings about this are if it is a motivation to practice, then good, but an exploration of Dhamma, Truth, also means being open to the possibility that things might be a bit different from what one expects or wants them to be, and open to the possibility that that can be uncomfortable.

We can celebrate commonalities (and what seems to be commonalities), but we should be careful not to assume they more than they are.
from your link:

The primary definition of a Fluffy Bunny is one who refuses to learn, refuses to think, and refuses to consider the possibility that they could possibly ever be wrong. Generally, they find one book, author or website and follow it as if it were the holy word, frequently denouncing anything that disagrees with it as obviously false. Fluffy Bunnies rarely get past the defense of "Because [insert favorite author here] says so." Sometimes they don't even get that far, responding to any and all criticism with something like, "You're just trying to persecute me!"

Interesting.

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by appicchato » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation
Apples and oranges...
...which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.
Please tell us how...and how you would know this...

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tiltbillings
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Re: What a great thread !

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:22 pm

appicchato wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Well, the problem with experience is that it can be conditioned by expectation
Apples and oranges...
You are going to need to be a bit more expansive. This comments says nothing, but be careful or you will end up in a meaningless and endless debate that goes nowhere and signifies nothing.
I wrote:...which is why the jhanas can present a serious problem.
you wrote:Please tell us how...and how you would know this...
You are telling me that the jhanas cannot in any way colored by ones beliefs? Do not forget, the jhanas are hardly exclusive to Buddhism, and are the basis for any number of wrong believes as the fiirst discourse in the DN states, but I always willing to learn.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by christopher::: » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:00 pm

tiltbillings wrote: ... be careful or you will end up in a meaningless and endless debate that goes nowhere and signifies nothing..
Wise to keep an eye out for that, definitely..!!

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by PeterB » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:42 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I think that's true but it's always worth remembering that people come to the Dhamma in different ways through different doors.

If people are standing in the new-agey fluffy doorway, do we wish to invite them in, or do we ask them to leave?

People are at where people are at... we need not expect commonality.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If the " we " is the community of pracitioners I think we should invite them in.
It might though be kind to point out that they may have to leave some of the bundle of ideas they are carrying outside, that otherwise they may not fit through the doorway. That they may have to leave... at least for the time being, mayan calenders, and harmonic convergence, and hindu reincarnation, and the pope etc, in the porch. Because if they try to bring them with them , they might find themselves stuck in the doorway, not as a result of anyones attempt to exclude them, but because they have in effect excluded themselves.

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Re: What a great thread !

Post by chicka-Dee » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:30 pm

I think you are making an awful lot of assumptions about what 'baggage' someone may, or may not, be holding onto.

That said, I also appreciate your point about excluding oneself.

There is much to think about here, from all supposed 'sides'.

I wish you all well,

Dee

:namaste:
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" ~Richard Bach from "Illusions"

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