Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Myotai
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Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Myotai »

Hi,

Spent the last month or so looking into the teachings of Dogen and how they're used by the Soto school. A few things that I have come away with, and in advance these are not meant to offend, merely my personal observations - but I would value your opinions:

1) You are already enlightened, just sitting is Enlightenment nothing more is needed - Huh? I have really struggled to get my head around this and I am afraid I am still utterly lost to its meaning. They say there is no goal and nothing to gain. All aspirations are futile and doomed from the onset. They recommend sitting for sittings sake. Leaves me cold I am afraid.

2) There is almost no mention of anything to do with philosophy. Emptiness is mentioned but never discussed and there is nothing from what I can see that acknowledges the Abhidhamma.

3) I detected a Meme of sorts...I might be wrong but statements like "just be who you are before thought" and "don't sit for anything, just sit"....seemed to be batted round like its something I 'should' have understood. I suggest emptying your mind is something that is not as easy as some of the people I spoke to seemed to think.

4) There is an unshakable belief that the process of sitting on the cushion and doing nothing in particular is different than sitting on the couch and doing nothing in particular. sitting on the cushion is somehow seen as sacred.

5) The biggest impression I left with was questioning whether it was Buddhism at all. There was a thread of Buddhist thought but a monumental absence of anything I am familiar with in the Suttas and an almost exclusive emphasis on Dogen, Hongzhi and so on with a palpable (almost exclusion) of what the Buddha actually taught.


Anyway, like I said, not a critique more observations. I'd appreciate your thoughts and experiences.

M...
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Dan74
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Dan74 »

Hi Myotai,

There've been a few threads on this in the past and you might want to check out:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13382

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4508

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4605

I've sat with Soto groups for some time and I have reservations about how efficacious their method of no method is for most people but there's no doubt in my mind that it can work for some.
_/|\_
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James the Giant
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by James the Giant »

Are you just studying Zen or actively practising it?
I found Zen pretty incomprehensible when reading it cold, but after sitting a Zen retreat and practising a while, it started to make sense.

But I did eventually abandon it, my analytical mind got too pissed off by the excessive crypticness of it all.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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Myotai
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Myotai »

Hi guys,

I have been practicing Silent Illumination for quite sometime - desparatley trying to find a similar practice in Theravada as this tradition is where I feel most at home.

Will check those threads out, but yes James, my analytical mind absolutely will not have any of it :reading:
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by chownah »

Number two through five seem pretty ok to me but number one while making some sense as a skillful means for setting a mental mood seems to rely too heavily on the delusional construct of self.

I could say more but it would be just a lot of old stuff rehashed and seems like people are bored with that.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by tiltbillings »

Myotai wrote:Hi,



1) You are already enlightened, just sitting is Enlightenment nothing more is needed
Give us an actual quote.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
befriend
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by befriend »

you become the philosophy, doing nothing means just sitting, not just spacing out, it is an alert yet relaxed awareness using correct posture. the focus is on being in the present not worrying about results, because deep down you already are the result. I practiced silent illumination (shikantaza) for one year 1 hour a day. it is samatha and vipassana practiced simultaneously. it leads to the feeling of huge compassion and also deep insights.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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kirk5a
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by kirk5a »

[Ven. Ananda] But he does know this: 'All those who have been led, are being led, or will be led [to release] from the cosmos have done so, are doing so, or will do so after having abandoned the five hindrances — those defilements of awareness that weaken discernment — having well-established[1] their minds in the four frames of reference, and having developed, as they have come to be, the seven factors for Awakening.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Anagarika
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Anagarika »

i
it is samatha and vipassana practiced simultaneously.
I feel you were lucky if you had a Zen teacher instructing this way. Early Chinese Zen did teach the practice of dhyana, a traditional practice which seems to have been long lost after some time in Japan. Though some folks argue that Zen means "dhyana," in truth western Zen has long forgotten Chinese samatha/vipassana.

I spent some time years ago in a zendo with a well known Zen teacher. He taught the same kind of "just sitting" described well by others earlier in this topic. He sometimes stated that vipassana was "aggravating" and that the practice of "silent illumination" involved no insight practice, and that the sitting practice was goalless. I decided to stop trying to pound square pegs into round holes ( ie trying to make Zen work for myself) after hearing one of his senior priests complain, after a daylong "sesshin," that he was "tired of all of this bulls**t sitting and staring at a wall." Probably the best teaching moment I experienced that year.
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Myotai
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Myotai »

tiltbillings wrote:
Myotai wrote:Hi,



1) You are already enlightened, just sitting is Enlightenment nothing more is needed
Give us an actual quote.

Sorry Tilt, been really busy here.

Though I think it would be unfair of me to make direct quotes from individuals. Suffice to say that I have heard this said time and time again recently. Also that just sitting is all that is needed and that merely sitting in silence is an embodiment of enlightenment.

M...
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Jon. S
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by Jon. S »

BuddhaSoup wrote:i
it is samatha and vipassana practiced simultaneously.
after hearing one of his senior priests complain, after a daylong "sesshin," that he was "tired of all of this bulls**t sitting and staring at a wall." Probably the best teaching moment I experienced that year.
:jumping:
I was born naked.
My beloved parents
kindly gave me a name.
When I reached twenty
I thought "a name is a chain,
I want to abandon it".
Whoever I questioned
No one answers me.
When I hear the wind in the pines
I get an answer.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by tiltbillings »

Myotai wrote: Though I think it would be unfair of me to make direct quotes from individuals. Suffice to say that I have heard this said time and time again recently. Also that just sitting is all that is needed and that merely sitting in silence is an embodiment of enlightenment.

M...
If these are published quotes from Dogen or some modern teacher, it is worth looking at the quote in its fuller context.

Also, I think you are missing something here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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seeker242
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by seeker242 »

Myotai wrote:
2) There is almost no mention of anything to do with philosophy. Emptiness is mentioned but never discussed and there is nothing from what I can see that acknowledges the Abhidhamma.
Interesting. I find Soto Zen to be one of the most philosophical zen traditions out there. The Shobogenzo is chock full of philosophy. Among Japanese philosophers, Dogen is held in very high regard. "Just sitting is enlightenment" is not such a simple statement. It has a ton of philosophy behind it. http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... sopher.htm

:anjali:
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kmath
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by kmath »

Jon. S wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote: after hearing one of his senior priests complain, after a daylong "sesshin," that he was "tired of all of this bulls**t sitting and staring at a wall." Probably the best teaching moment I experienced that year.
:jumping:
:jumping: indeed. That's hilarious.
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drew
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Post by drew »

Excellent question. Some of my views.

1) You can not sit without intention. Just sitting involves Effort, Right Effort actually if you are practicing Zen, Dzogchen pure mind or Vipassana correctly.

2) Buddhist practice is not a philosophy but a practical way to experience the Dhamma for yourself, here and now. We just need to do it.

3) Attempting to get somewhere or do something is missing the point. Just observe reality arising and passing away, and see how the experience affects your Heart. Being aware and present with a clear Mind and allowing things to be leads to Liberation. Reacting with desire or aversion leads to Suffering.

4) You can practice anywhere, anytime. Associating Buddhist practice with a cushion is incorrect. Think "Chopping wood, carry water" for a simple Zen guide.

5) Every tradition has it's own cultural overlay. Remember cultural overlays are not Dhamma. Dhamma is in your Heart, look there and see if your are Liberating yourself from Suffering.

Always remember the Seven Factors: Concentration, Mindfulness, Effort, Joy, Loving kindness, Compassion and perhaps most importantly Equanimity. These should be the yardsticks of Dhamma for any practitioner.
The gift of the Dhamma excels all gifts (DP354)
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