the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
K.Dhamma
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by K.Dhamma » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:39 pm

I would not consider myself vegetarian. I do the ascetic practice of only eating once a day. I want to become vegetarian, and I actually do pretty good in reducing the amount of meat in my meals. Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat. I have yet to give up milk and other product, but I always look back to "Rome wasn't built in a day." So, I basically take it on a day to day/meal to meal basis. One step at a time. I think that the suffering from mega farms and the such that is put onto other beings just for the consumption of meat is a treatorous road to travel for a farmer doing it. I do have a couple questions though.

What about eggs? Are unfertilized free range eggs ok to consume for protein?
Also, does anyone know a good website to go to for maybe nutritional information for someone wanting to become a strict vegetarian? I would love to do it, but I haven't found a good website with information pertaining to nutritional information when switching from meat-to-veg diets. Any help is appreciated.

Just a side note. I found that the one thing that changed my mind in the beginning about meat eating is when we are re-incarnated, just remember....you might have been that cow at some time...so does that make you a cannibal? :P Food for Though (pun intended ;) )
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah

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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:08 pm

K.Dhamma wrote: What about eggs? Are unfertilized free range eggs ok to consume for protein?
Also, does anyone know a good website to go to for maybe nutritional information for someone wanting to become a strict vegetarian? I would love to do it, but I haven't found a good website with information pertaining to nutritional information when switching from meat-to-veg diets. Any help is appreciated.
Eggs are okay, no being is killed to produce eggs if you want to be lacto-ovo vegetarian. However, there is some "collateral damage" according to some vegans. Typically at an egg farm, the male chicks that are born are ground up and made into pet food or hotdogs (since they don't produce eggs).

The vegan resource group is a good site for more information:
http://www.vrg.org/

K.Dhamma
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by K.Dhamma » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:14 pm

many thanks :)
"Remember you dont meditate to get anything, but to get rid of things. We do it, not with desire, but with letting go. If you want anything, you wont find it." - Ajahn Chah

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:24 am

K.Dhamma wrote: Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat.
Then you need to examine your body's functioning and eat what is healthy for you. I am not sure if ruining your health just to follow some beliefs is the right thing to do. Vegetarianism is NOT the middle way.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:43 am

From historical records the Buddha was mostly vegetarian, but I guess that's not the middle way, perhaps you can tell us just what the middle way is??

Also the Buddhas teaching to reduce or eliminate suffering is not supposed to be applied selfishly just to ourselves but to all sentient beings, even I dare say those animals on your plate. Doctors have determined that a healthy vegetarian or even vegan diet (with B12) provides all the nutrients and proteins needed to survive and be healthier not just as healthy as meat eaters, so when some one says they feel healthier eating meat, you have to wonder if some of that effect might be psychological, or if they are just eating an unbalanced vegetarian diet.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

Sanjay PS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sanjay PS » Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:11 am

Alex123 wrote:
K.Dhamma wrote: Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat.
Then you need to examine your body's functioning and eat what is healthy for you. I am not sure if ruining your health just to follow some beliefs is the right thing to do. Vegetarianism is NOT the middle way.
i think there is nothing of an "ism" about being a vegetarian . Its a natural progression on the path of Dhamma, without being attached to the kind of eating . As to being healthy , modern science has very well documented the benefits of being a vegetarian , out weighs meat eating ( this thread cites many such examples , should you browse the pages ) . One should however have no qualms about those who eat meat , similarly , one should have no qualms about those who eat green grass :smile:

Take care.

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka

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nekete
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:09 pm

Hello friends...

Maybe you already have talked about these books in this long thread, maybe not. I have found them recently and I'd like to recommend them for those who are interested in Buddhism and vegetarianism and still haven't heard about them.

Image

Image

Image

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nekete
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:19 pm

K.Dhamma wrote:(...) Lately I have removed red meat from my meals almost exclusively. However, I find myself becoming hypoglycemic and very "drained" if I go 2-3 days without meat. So, I slowed down and I now eat very modest with meat. (...)
My friend, what you need to eat to be healthy are carbohydrates, proteins, vitamins an minerals.

As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).

Check if you are having a balanced diet with all nutrients the human body (your specific body) needs. And of course meat is not a nutrient.

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:08 pm

nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).
Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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nekete
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by nekete » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:12 pm

Alex123 wrote:
nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).
Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.
You can obtain it from vegetables.

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:20 pm

nekete wrote:You can obtain it from vegetables.
Yes it is possible, and so is it possible to obtain energy from water (steam-engine). But how efficient is it?

Except for coconut oil, which vegetarian product has saturated fat? What about B12?

What if someone needs to be on high protein, low-carb diet?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:25 pm

Alex123 wrote:
nekete wrote:As you can see you don't need to eat 'meat' to be OK. What do you think is there in meat that you can't find in vegetables? (apart from b12 vitamin).
Fats and cholesterol which are crucial for cells and brain function. Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.

Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.
What you've done is post a strong arguement for cannabilism, which goes to show just how nutty the meat eaters can get in their arguements!!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:27 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:What you've done is post a strong arguement for cannabilism, which goes to show just how nutty the meat eaters can get in their arguements!!!!
I didn't create this dukkha world. I don't approve it.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:Also, remember, the closer the food is to make up of your body, the more natural it is.
That would make human blood a superfood. But from what I've read, blood, when eaten and digested, is actually not very nutritious - very poor in comparison to having it flow through your veins.
There are important changes in the digestive system that happen to the things we eat, which is why it is not possible to predict that something is nutritious simply because it resembles the make-up of our body.
Alex123 wrote:Yes it is possible, and so is it possible to obtain energy from water (steam-engine). But how efficient is it?
Depends on what one wishes to do with one's energy.
Except for coconut oil, which vegetarian product has saturated fat? What about B12?
From what I've read, B12 is normally stored in the body and doesn't get used up easily. See Wiki article on it.
What if someone needs to be on high protein, low-carb diet?
Obviously, in the field of nutrition, there are many differing opinions on what is good and what isn't. I think the real issue here is whom to trust, whom to rely on, and for what purpose.

There is the ideal of establishing bodily health per se - regardless of one's goals in life, regardless of what one wants to do in life.
I think this ideal is misleading.

One's ideas of "health" will necessarily have to do with what one sees as the meaning or purpose of life.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:05 pm

Alex123 wrote:Study the composition of fats in mother's milk... It will show you what the nature intended us to consume.
The composition of mother's milk shows you what nature intends for infant human beings to consume who will triple in weight within a year.

Metta.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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