Sotapanna and five precepts

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SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:01 am

Thanks Devarupa
I read the link. But I could not get what you said there.
Where does it mentioned about Sotapanna?
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daverupa
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby daverupa » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:08 am

SarathW wrote:Where does it mentioned about Sotapanna?


Ananda, the bhikkhu knows, it is impossible, that one come to right view...


This passage refers to the stream-enterer.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:23 am

Thanks
Your statement is supported here as well:

Page 42:

22. Eradication of the Akusala Cittas by the four
classes of Aryan disciples.
A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts).
A Sakadàgàmi (Once-Returner), who has attained
the second stage of Sainthood, weakens the potentiality of
the 9th and 10th types of consciousness, because he has
only attenuated the two Fetters—Kàmaràga (Sense-desire)
and Pañigha (Hatred).
An Anàgàmi (Never-Returner), who has attained the
third stage of Sainthood, eradicates the above two types of consciousness
as he has completely destroyed the said two Fetters.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby rohana » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Source: (http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Nanavira Thera wrote:Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed.
...


On that note, I believe there's a commentarial story about Anāthapindika's daughter who became a sakadāgāmi but was severely distressed over not being able to find a husband that she stopped eating and eventually died? Also, Anāthapindika, meeting his daughter on her deathbed, is unable to recognize her attainment.

Edit: Here's the story:

    The son, in spite of his father's efforts, showed no piety until he was finally bribed to go to the vihāra and listen to the Buddha's preaching. The daughters, on the other hand, were most dutiful and helped their father in ministering to the monks. The two elder ones attained to the First Fruit of the Path, married, and went to live with the families of their husbands. Sumanā obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died and was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f).
    Anathapindika

    Anathapindika and Visakha were so intimately acquainted with the
    needs of the monks that they were much sought after to accompany
    those who desired to carry alms to the monks. When Visakha left her
    house, she appointed a granddaughter to dispense alms in her place.
    Anathapindika assigned a similar duty to his oldest daughter. The
    latter attained the Fruit of Conversion, married, and was succeeded by
    a younger sister. She also attained the Fruit of Conversion, married,
    and was succeeded by the youngest daughter Sumana. (151)

    Sumana attained the Fruit of the Second Path, but remained un-
    married. Thereat she sickened, would eat nothing, and sent for her
    father. When the latter asked her what was the matter, she addressed
    him as "youngest brother," and died. Anathapindika, unable to quiet
    his grief, went to the Teacher and told him what had happened.
    " Why do you grieve ? " said the Teacher. " Know you not that death
    is certain for all V "I know that, Venerable sir ; but my daughter
    talked incoherently when she died, addressing me as 'youngest
    brother.' " " She spoke quite correctly," replied the Teacher, " for she
    had attained the Fruit of the Second Path, while you have attained
    only the Fruit of Conversion." 27 Thereupon the Teacher informed
    Anathapindika that Sumana had been reborn in the Tusita heaven,
    and pronounced Stanza 18, at the conclusion of which many were
    established in the Fruits. (151-4)
    Buddhaghōṣa's Dhammapada Commentary

So was it that Anāthapindika did not recognize any attainment in her daughter at all, or just did not recognize that she had a higher attainment than him?
Last edited by rohana on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Chi » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:36 am

I think it depends on how picky one is about the precepts. The precepts can go infinitely deep.

For example, if somebody asks a sotapanna, "How are you?" and the sotapanna is not feeling well or is distressed, and he answers, "good" or "well," is he breaking a precept?

Or if a sotapanna, or anybody for that matter, holds back speech, which is beneficial and truthful, is he breaking a precept?
Do Good, Avoid Evil, Purify the Mind.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Fri May 23, 2014 4:38 am

Another strong support for observing precepts:

The four factors of stream-entry, briefly stated, are as follows:
1) buddhe aveccappasadena samannagato;
2) dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato;
3) saghe aveccappasadena samannagato;
4) ariyakantehi silehi samannagato.25
1) He is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Buddha;
2) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Dhamma;
3) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Sagha;
4) he is endowed with virtues dear to the Noble Ones.
The stream-winner has a deep faith in the Buddha, in the Dhamma and
in the Sagha that is born of understanding. His virtue is also of a higher
order, since it is well based on that faith. So in the definition of the faculty
of faith we have an echo of chanda-iddhipada.
P669
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... ed_VII.pdf

This is supported by the following Sutta:

"He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Another Sutta to support the OP:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:50 am

Sambodhi in Oz wrote:Don't remember the sutta but what I understand is that the things which a sotapanna can't do are :

1. Patricide
2. Matricide
3. Hurting a Buddha ( kill nobody can)
4. Cause schism in Buddha's order
5. Kill an Arhant

This are probably the worst crimes which a sotapanna can't do. On other things they may commit but will immediately recognise the mistake and make amends.

Regards

Parth


Ratana Sutta

At the moment of attaining sight,
one abandons three things:
identity-views, uncertainty,
& any attachment to precepts & practices.[3]
One is completely released
from the four states of deprivation,[4]
and incapable of committing
the six great wrongs.[5]
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Sangha.
By this truth may there be well-being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-5

5.The six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant (fully Awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:38 pm

“When, householder, these five fearful animosities have subsided in a noble disciple, and he possesses these four factors of stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom this noble method, if he wishes he could by himself declare of himself: ‘I am one finished with hell, finished with the animal realm, finished with the domain of ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as my destination.


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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:33 am

SarathW wrote:According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A sotapanna can not break the precepts, but there maybe exceptions in appearance. I.e. They take something not freely given without knowing they picked it up, or mistook it for their own. The precepts have causes and conditions which must be met for a breach to be fulfilled.

A sotapanna simply would not break the precept without reason. There are Arahant's who originated some of the Vinaya rules after all.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:25 pm

The Sarakaani Sutta comes to my mind.

Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink) SN 55.24
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby SarathW » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:51 am

It appears there was a drunken Sotapanna in Buddhas time.
His name sound like "Sarkani"
Video counter 46 minutes

PS. PLEASE SEE THE CORRECTION POST ON 17/01/17


Last edited by SarathW on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Twilight » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:52 pm

A sotapanna can of course break the five percepts. Sotapanna does not require incredible amounts of practice to achieve, it just requires hearing higher teachings and doing an effort to understand them. There was a live long sadistic serial killer who even tried to murder the Buddha in the suttas and he became a sotapanna after been intructed by the Buddha in higher teachings. There were also sotapannas wanting to quit monkhood for a woman and doing all kind of bad things.

Only actions a sotapanna is incapable of are these:

A sotāpanna is not capable of committing six wrong actions:

Murdering one's own mother.
Murdering one's own father.
Murdering an arahant.
Maliciously injuring the Buddha to the point of drawing blood.
Deliberately creating a schism in the monastic community.
Taking another Teacher [besides Buddha].
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby thepea » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:34 pm

Twilight wrote:
Only actions a sotapanna is incapable of are these:

A sotāpanna is not capable of committing six wrong actions:

Murdering one's own mother.
Murdering one's own father.
Murdering an arahant.
Maliciously injuring the Buddha to the point of drawing blood.
Deliberately creating a schism in the monastic community.
Taking another Teacher [besides Buddha].

A sotapanna has passed through the stages of insight, this is not merely theoretical but experiential so one must have put Deanna into practice and not just theorized.
I agree with this portion of your post twilight and that a stoop Anna can break precepts.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:45 pm

Sarakāni Sutta wrote:Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'8


Mirror of the Dhamma (Mahāparinibbāna Sutta)

The noble disciple also possesses virtues beloved by the good, with their morality unbroken, intact, spotless, and unblemished, virtues that make men truly free, that are praised by the wise, untarnished by the desire for future life or by the belief in the efficacy of outward acts, and are conducive to high and holy thought.”
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby thepea » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:00 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sarakāni Sutta wrote:Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'8


Mirror of the Dhamma (Mahāparinibbāna Sutta)

The noble disciple also possesses virtues beloved by the good, with their morality unbroken, intact, spotless, and unblemished, virtues that make men truly free, that are praised by the wise, untarnished by the desire for future life or by the belief in the efficacy of outward acts, and are conducive to high and holy thought.”

Do you feel a sotapanna has perfect morality?
I would say the sotapanna has observed and followed five precepts scrupulously in order to meditate at the depth required to realize stages of insight. A monk may maintain this level of practice and progress further, but a layperson may practice intensively on retreat for some period of time and then return to lay life where ones sati has decreased capacity ones moral compass would also decrease as a result.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Twilight » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:15 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Sarakāni Sutta wrote:Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death.'8


Mirror of the Dhamma (Mahāparinibbāna Sutta)

The noble disciple also possesses virtues beloved by the good, with their morality unbroken, intact, spotless, and unblemished, virtues that make men truly free, that are praised by the wise, untarnished by the desire for future life or by the belief in the efficacy of outward acts, and are conducive to high and holy thought.”

This quote is the main one responsible for the arahantification of sotapannas that we see today. By "morality unbroken, intact, etc" this refers to his will. He will not do evil things because of his own volition but because of the hidrances that have not yet been destroyed in him. But there are stream enterers who wanted to quit monkhood for a woman in the suttas. Buddha once convinced a stream enterer to continue living the holy life with a promise of been reborn in a heaven with nimphs more beautiful than that girl. After a while, he came back to his senses. This is because of the morality and good will of such a person, he will always repent. He will not develop wrong views that might lead him to for example kill somebody for a woman. Well... actually he might very well would (if drunk for example), because that is not listed as one of the 6 evil things that a stream enterer is incapable of doing. This would not be done out of wrong views but out of certain circumstances and hidrances. But there was no case of such a thing happening in the suttas.
I would say the sotapanna has observed and followed five precepts scrupulously in order to meditate at the depth required to realize stages of insight. A monk may maintain this level of practice and progress further, but a layperson may practice intensively on retreat for some period of time and then return to lay life where ones sati has decreased capacity ones moral compass would also decrease as a result.

All who ever became stream enterers in the suttas did so after hearing and contemplating discourses on higher teachings. There is no mention of a certain level of morality required. Also there is no mention of things like "he went into the forest to meditate/ he developed x level of silla/ etc. and then he became stream enterer". All who ever became stream enterers did it because of contemplating higher teachings. There was even a life-long sadistic serial killer who tried to kill the Buddha that became a stream enterer after a couple of days of hearing discourses on higher teachings.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:36 pm

thepea wrote:Do you feel a sotapanna has perfect morality?

A Stream-winner has achieved stable morality. Sarakāni was not a Stream-winner when he took to drink. He attained it later.
Ledi Sayādaw wrote:The moral conduct that culminates in the attainment of path consciousness is called stable morality. Morality is a supporting condition for the path. With the attainment of the path, morality becomes stable and irreversible. From this time onwards, a person will not kill any sentient being, great or small, under any circumstances. He or she always maintains morality with steadfast confidence and wisdom. The precept to abstain from killing living beings becomes stable, so he or she is totally free from suffering in lower realms. In future lives too he or she will never be shameless or immoral. The Noble One is firmly established in natural morality and natural goodness, so can never become a robber, a murderer, a hunter, or a thief. A Noble One cannot be reborn in hell, as an animal, hungry ghost, or demon. Due to stable morality, a Noble One avoids these inferior existences. These are the powers and benefits of stable morality, which is only achievable in this dispensation.

A Stream-winner is not free from all defilements, so he or she can revert to the household life (if currently one gone-forth), or they can get lustful or angry, but not to the extent of killing living beings, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, telling lies. An ordinary person who has not attained to Stream-winning, can observe morality for years without any blemish, but then fall away from it when the circumstances so conspire to overwhelm his or her mind with defilements.

Taking intoxicants can be done unknowingly, and for a monk, that is still an offence to be confessed. A lay person who is a Stream-winner would not, in my opinion, knowingly and intentionally drink intoxicants or take drugs because they are never shameless. They know that they have undertaken the precept, so they will not transgress it even for the sake of being polite to their host, etc.

I am not going to enter the Twilight zone.
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Twilight » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:44 pm

Taking intoxicants can be done unknowingly, and for a monk, that is still an offence to be confessed. A lay person who is a Stream-winner would not, in my opinion, knowingly and intentionally drink intoxicants or take drugs because they are never shameless. They know that they have undertaken the precept, so they will not transgress it even for the sake of being polite to their host, etc.

A person might have right view and perfect morality (understood as intention). He might still be taking alcohol, engaging in sexual activity, etc because of past tendencies developed in the past. Because his hidrances had not disappeared without a trace like in the case of an arahant. But he does not do this with wrong view, thinking this will bring him no harm. He knows these are not good and has a honest intention to stop them. He just can't do it yet because he is not an arahant.
but not to the extent of killing living beings, stealing, committing sexual misconduct, telling lies. An ordinary person who has not attained to Stream-winning, can observe morality for years without any blemish, but then fall away from it when the circumstances so conspire to overwhelm his or her mind with defilements.

Then why are these not listed in the 6 things a stream enterer is incapable of ?

A sotāpanna is not capable of committing six wrong actions:

Murdering one's own mother.
Murdering one's own father.
Murdering an arahant.
Maliciously injuring the Buddha to the point of drawing blood.
Deliberately creating a schism in the monastic community.
Taking another Teacher [besides Buddha].


And how about that stream enterer who wanted to quit monkhood for a woman and Buddha convinced him by promising that he will get reborn in a heaven with nimphs more beautiful than that girl ?
I am not going to enter the Twilight zone.

Nobody is claiming keeping the percepts, developing morality, working towards arahanthip are not good. If one has them developed to the level of an arahant than good for him. He will achieve arahanthips instead of stream entry after contemplating the higher teachings of the Buddha. Just like ex-ascetics achieved arahanthip after contemplating such discourses while normal people only achieved stream entry. What I am saying is that there is no sutta support for this arahantification of sotapannas.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Digity » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:26 pm

Are you suggesting a sotapanna can intentionally drink alcohol? If so, sounds like you're trying to get the description of a sotapanna to fit to your liking.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Postby Twilight » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:35 pm

Are you suggesting a sotapanna can intentionally drink alcohol? If so, sounds like you're trying to get the description of a sotapanna to fit to your liking.

I had quit alcohol 4 years ago. I am trying to get the description of sotapanna to fit with the suttas. It is not good to misinterpret the suttas:

A sotāpanna is not capable of committing six wrong actions:

Murdering one's own mother.
Murdering one's own father.
Murdering an arahant.
Maliciously injuring the Buddha to the point of drawing blood.
Deliberately creating a schism in the monastic community.
Taking another Teacher [besides Buddha].


Do you see drinking alcohol mentioned in there ? If you had read about sotapanna been incapable of drinking alcohol in another book, such as meditation books from contemporary teachers, then feel free to specify witch teacher and what book claims that to be so. But do not claim suttas say such a thing without providing sutta reference. It is not good to misinterpret the suttas. If indeed a sotapanna is incapable of breaking the 5 percepts I am sure there would exist such a sutta claiming that. Also, this would mean the sutta about the 6 wrong actions that can not be committed by a sotapanna would be a corruption to the Pali Canon witch so far had not had such allegations. So feel free to search for such a sutta and post it here if you find one.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link


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