AN 3.63 Venāga

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daverupa
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by daverupa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 pm

santa100 wrote:Ven. Bodhi's MN 76's translation:
But, Master Ānanda, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…is his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake?”

“As to that, Sandaka, I shall give you a simile, for some wise men here understand the meaning of a statement by means of a simile. Suppose a man’s hands and feet were cut off. Whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake, his hands and feet are continuously and uninterruptedly cut off, but he would know this only when he reviews the fact. So too, Sandaka, when a bhikkhu is an arahant with taints destroyed…his knowledge and vision that his taints are destroyed is not continuously and uninterruptedly present to him whether he is walking or standing or sleeping or awake; rather, he knows ‘My taints are destroyed’ only when he reviews this fact
Actually that sounds even more like a complementary to MN 111 that I've already referenced..
Hmm. To me it sounds as though they can review it at will, without difficulty. Oh well. Perhaps it is as you say, instead, where they can review it only with difficulty, not at will.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by santa100 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 pm

No worry friend. The only surefire way to tell is to attain the fruit to see for ourselves anyway... :anjali:

pabhaata
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by pabhaata » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:39 am

the jhanas are equated to celestial beds(dibba). the brahma viharas are equated to divine beds(brahma). as far as i have read, both jhanas and the brahma viharas lead to rebirth in brahma worlds. the tika says that the jhanas lead to states of being a deva so they are equated to divine beds. this is the first time i see jhanas being equated to deva loka. are there any other suttas that say so to?

santa100
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by santa100 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:20 pm

Deva is a very broad term that involves many classifications/grades of beings in all 3 realms: kama, rupa, and arupa-dhatu.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_(Budd ... es_of_deva

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mikenz66
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:43 pm

Hi pabhaata,

See the sutta references here:
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html

E.g. AN 4.123 Jhana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.
:anjali:
Mike

pabhaata
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Re: AN 3.63 Venāga

Post by pabhaata » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:02 am

thank you. i found the sutta quoted. it does say the word 'deva' in pali. but according to abhidhamma that plane is considered to be a brahma plane. i checked furthur and found that in many suttas, word 'deva' is used for brahma worlds too. though i've read them before, i never noticed till now. thanks again.

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