Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Ben »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.
The pedantic wretch in me says: Technically... no! One's own dukkha is born from one's own kamma.
Having said that, I don't mean we should do nothing when some horror is unleashed upon ourselves or others.

I do know what you mean. Equanimity is a path factor for a very good reason.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Ben »

Thanks Tilt
tiltbillings wrote:A Mawkish1983 smilie would be great. Eight year olds using smilies is a thing of goodness.


:hug: :jumping: :popcorn: :reading: :zzz: :soap: :smile: :shrug: :toast: :bow: :clap: :rolleye: :cry: :console: :guns: :hello: :jedi: :pig: :thumbsup: :namaste: :meditate: :rofl: :tantrum: :) :D :yingyang: :twothumbsup: :thanks: :thinking: :tongue: :anjali: :buddha1: :coffee: :cookoo: :group: :quote: :heart: :spy: :jawdrop: :toilet: :sage: :namaste: :thumbsup: :pig: :rofl: :tantrum: :) :D :yingyang: :twothumbsup: :thanks: ;) :( :o :shock: :? 8-) :evil: :weep: :embarassed: :P :x :lol: :arrow: :idea: :?: :!: :roll: :twisted: :goodpost: :oops: :offtopic: :focus: :ban: :computerproblem: :rules: :ugeek: :geek: :mrgreen: :| :broke:
Now, I got that out of my system, I feel better.
I'll be sure young Quinn gets to see your handiwork the next time we[re both on together. and given my work commitments for the coming 48 hours, it could be a few days away!
Cheers

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
christopher:::
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:56 am

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by christopher::: »

Ben wrote:Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.
The pedantic wretch in me says: Technically... no! One's own dukkha is born from one's own kamma.
Having said that, I don't mean we should do nothing when some horror is unleashed upon ourselves or others.

I do know what you mean. Equanimity is a path factor for a very good reason.
Metta

Ben
Hi Ben! Technically speaking, given that the "self" is an illusion of sorts, isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

Manapa wrote:There is tollerance and then there is not trying to understand where the beliefs come from and how they are held and what can be done so that these beliefs don't inpact negatively on anyone.

as in all likelihood no-one who holds such beliefs will be members here how would discussing and speculating help?
Hi Manapa,
I think some teachings inherently tend to impact negatively on people.

No, it is not likely that anyone here will hold these beliefs. However it seems that some people here overlook aspects within religious tradition that in my view are often very harmful to the practitioner and people who are not practitioners. I am in total agreement with defining religious tolerance as the cultivation of non aversion in the face of things we either do not understand or that we simply disagree with. That is why I said "I think if we pay attention with kindness we can not but feel that it is critically important to look for any effective opportunity to lessen peoples confidence in such beliefs."

This is not really a matter of speculation. I have a number of friends who were born into the Dalit class in India. Even though they have converted to Buddhism they still have to interact with people who's religion has taught that they are virtually cursed with impurity.

Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.
It's not a matter of "should" or "should not." It's a matter of seeing things as they are and recognizing our own reaction to that. Reacting with contentment and judging that mindstate as "good," hoping it will last, is dukkha. Reacting with discontentment is dukkha. Reacting to dukkha itself with more discontentment is even more dukkha. Retro hit the nail on the head with his post.




Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:Hi Ben! Technically speaking, given that the "self" is an illusion of sorts, isn't there also a collective element to karma and dukkha, in that its born of our interactions, reactions, responses, etc?
Technically speaking, it doesn't matter with regard to practice. To what extent can any of us control another, and how much effort should we exert trying to do so? Those questions need to be answered on a case-by-case basis, and the answer we come up with will always be our own kamma. We always have the same localized basis for practice, here and now. But we can look to mudita to have a better understanding of this "illusion" of self versus others.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

only when you're not wanting to change things are you content with how things are.
Retro. :)

Hi Retro,

I am not so sure of this statement. How are things? They are changing. We can support change for the the better or change for the worse. Of course this is going to be a matter of changing our own mind states but a crucial part of that is not being indifferent to the suffering of others in my opinion.


Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Actually, we human tolerate a lot things we do not like so much but have no choice in the matter as to whatever-it-might-be's existence. Can't do anything about it, so we tolerate it, though we might complain a bit. Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.
"I cant do anything about it"
That is one extreme

"I will fix this problem for good"
That is the other extreme



Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Sometime we should not be content with how this are. There are things that should not be tolerated.
By what criteria would these be determined?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,


I will not say it is always simple but are you going to say that we have no ability to discern when a teaching is causing and supporting acute suffering?

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Jechbi »

gabrielbranbury wrote: How are things? They are changing. We can support change for the the better or change for the worse. Of course this is going to be a matter of changing our own mind states but a crucial part of that is not being indifferent to the suffering of others in my opinion.
If you want to change the fire, you change the fuel. You don't reach in and try to change the flames. I think Retro is talking about the process of not adding more fuel.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

kannada wrote:
I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance...

All the best

k


Hi K,

You are saying this regarding what?

I think we'd just end up being intolerant of intolerance if what??

I don't follow.

Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

Jechbi wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: How are things? They are changing. We can support change for the the better or change for the worse. Of course this is going to be a matter of changing our own mind states but a crucial part of that is not being indifferent to the suffering of others in my opinion.
If you want to change the fire, you change the fuel. You don't reach in and try to change the flames. I think Retro is talking about the process of not adding more fuel.

Hi Jechbi,

Of course lets not pile aversion upon the forest fire of hatred. I get it. But once we have an adequate fire break around our property to use your analogy, then it is appropriate to look for effective ways of helping to minimize the damage the fire has on others. Not just because it helps them but because it is an act of kindness and that will help to further insulate our home from the flames of hatred. Not tolerating harmful teaching can be a way of being kind. Its similar to when one calmly and with a kind demeanor doesn't allow racist speech in there presence to go uncorrected. This is something I have experience with here in the U.S. Thankfully racism here isnt upheld by traditional religious doctrine like it is in India.


Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Christopher,
christopher::: wrote:LOL, i wonder how our communication might go if we were restricted only to the single original smiley...

:smile:
:console:
christopher::: wrote:
Concerning tolerance, isnt the essential distinction internal, not external? We do indeed need to speak up about racism, militarism, xenophobia, religious violence and all the other crazy things humans do...

But how are you feeling about that, how are you thinking about it? If you find yourself constantly spinning thoughts and emotions related to these crazy things, the dukkha of others, that dukkha now becomes your dukkha as well.

Wise compassionate action without attachment or aversion, while difficult, seems optimal.

:namaste:
Yes we should strive to be "optimal". If we are not "optimal" lets at least try to approximate it as best be can for now. Practice makes perfect. But lets not be afraid to admit that people don't just do crazy awful stuff. Often they do so because of what there religious tradition has taught them.

Kindly

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
genkaku
Posts: 416
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:14 pm
Location: Northampton, Mass. U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by genkaku »

The great English-mangler and baseball manager Casey Stengel once observed, "If people won't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them."

When was there ever a time in which some did not involve themselves in foolish or harmful pursuits? EVER? The difficulty for those who do not engage in such pursuits is to recognize that just because they are right doesn't make them "right."

A student once asked my teacher, Kyudo Nakagawa Roshi, what he thought of the student's going to stay at a particular monastery. The monastery was run by a man my teacher did not hold in high esteem ... in fact, I believe, he thought the man was a fool. Nevertheless, my teacher told the student, "If you want to go, just go."

When circumstances present themselves and we are offered the opportunity to speak about foolish behavior, then we may speak up. Whether right or wrong is not so much the point. The point is to speak up as circumstances dictate and be ready to correct our own errors. More than that -- eg. imagining some goodness, virtue, correctness or whatever -- is probably too much.

Just my two cents.
User avatar
Prasadachitta
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:52 am
Location: San Francisco (The Mission) Ca USA
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Prasadachitta »

genkaku wrote:The great English-mangler and baseball manager Casey Stengel once observed, "If people won't come out to the ball park, you can't stop them."

When was there ever a time in which some did not involve themselves in foolish or harmful pursuits? EVER? The difficulty for those who do not engage in such pursuits is to recognize that just because they are right doesn't make them "right."

A student once asked my teacher, Kyudo Nakagawa Roshi, what he thought of the student's going to stay at a particular monastery. The monastery was run by a man my teacher did not hold in high esteem ... in fact, I believe, he thought the man was a fool. Nevertheless, my teacher told the student, "If you want to go, just go."

When circumstances present themselves and we are offered the opportunity to speak about foolish behavior, then we may speak up. Whether right or wrong is not so much the point. The point is to speak up as circumstances dictate and be ready to correct our own errors. More than that -- eg. imagining some goodness, virtue, correctness or whatever -- is probably too much.

Just my two cents.
Thank you Genkaku,

I very much appreciate your input.

I see you as virtious and correct :tongue:

and so go the imaginings...

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Tolerance versus hiding your head in the sand

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Gabe,
gabrielbranbury wrote:But once we have an adequate fire break around our property to use your analogy ...
That wasn't my analogy. Nobody is talking about mindless indifference. That was something you added with your interpretation of Retro's post, I believe.
retrofuturist wrote:[Tolerance] doesn't necessarily mean liking it, or even accepting it...
So when some unacceptable circumstance presents itself -- let's say you see that your son is standing in the path of an oncoming car -- of course you will react. You'll shout: "Get out of the way!" Or you'll run out and push him out of the way, if necessary. The good practice of tolerance is how we engage with that type of situation. Do we react with anger, yelling at the child for not being more careful, and maybe even giving the child a spanking or beating? Do we run after the car, yelling at the driver to slow down? How do we engage with that which we find unacceptable? This is samsara. Life is complicated. Tolerance is good practice.

Metta
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Post Reply