Oleksandr wrote:And I have three more questions to Vinaya pundits
If a monk-to-be doesn't have a permission, is his ordination valid in following cases?
1) He knowingly lies that he has a permission (when asked in Pali at a formal ceremony).
2) He doesn't know that permission is necessary and just says "yes" in Pali as he was taught to, not understanding the meaning of question.
3) He wasn't asked about permission at the ordination (e.g. if preceptor has forgotten to ask that or knowingly omitted this question).
As far as I understand in third case preceptor commits a dukkata offenсe, but what about a newly-ordained bhikkhu then?
I ordained in Thailand without parental permission and I had debts at the time. No one asked me for my real situation at any stage. I was just taught to say yes when the questions arose during the ceremony. It may have been different for me since I was a foreigner, but I think a lot of Thais ordain with debt too.
And there are also frequent scandals in Thailand where monks are caught out having sexual relations. One was a abbot of a large temple near Bangkok. He was probably a parajika for a long time and he would have acted as a preceptor for many ordinations - as far as I know no questions have arisen about the validity of these ordinations.
As far as I remember, Tathagata after talking with his father established a rule about parental consent, not about samaneras. Anyway, thanks, I will try to look up in the Buddhist monastic code.
As far as I remember, Tathagata after talking with his father established a rule about parental consent, not about samaneras. Anyway, thanks, I will try to look up in the Buddhist monastic code.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form. John Stuart Mill
Hi, fellows! I'll become an anagaraka at Wat Pah Nanachat, Thailand. I'm 29 years old, have a sister almost two years older than me and my parents allow me to ordain. Although the full ordination is still an uncertain event, must I request to my parents an authenticated letter in which they give me permission for full ordination? Would it be valid? Or is my "yes" enough at the moment of ordination? Probably, my parents won't be present at the ceremony.
I don't know what the policy is at Wat Bananas, but at most Thai wats they will just take your word for it (that is, if they even bother to ask you about it). At the few which require evidence a letter from your parents will suffice.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
I don't know what the policy is at Wat Bananas, but at most Thai wats they will just take your word for it (that is, if they even bother to ask you about it). At the few which require evidence a letter from your parents will suffice.
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