Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Mkoll
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by Mkoll » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:24 am

Just wanted to post the link for the essay that the OP is referring to for those who haven't read it. Excellent work as usual from Ven. Bodhi. Highly recommended.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:59 pm

Mkoll

Thanks for the link.
Good reading materials.

He said
===============

To help answer the question whether the jhānas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotāpatti). Since the Nikāyas order the process of awakening into four stages -- stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship -- it is possible that the jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhānas, while the jhānas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.
=====================

I agree 100% with Bikkhu Bodhi in this case.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by Kumara » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:49 am

SarathW wrote:Mkoll

Thanks for the link.
Good reading materials.

He said
===============

To help answer the question whether the jhānas are necessary for the attainment of the stages of awakening, we might narrow the question down by asking whether they are needed to reach the first stage of awakening, known as stream-entry (sotāpatti). Since the Nikāyas order the process of awakening into four stages -- stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship -- it is possible that the jhānas come to assume an essential role at a later stage in the unfolding of the path, and not at the first stages. Thus it may be that the insight required for the earlier stages does not presuppose prior attainment of the jhānas, while the jhānas become indispensable in making the transition from one of the intermediate stages to a more advanced stage. I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.
=====================

I agree 100% with Bikkhu Bodhi in this case.
Would be good if he can provide a firm backing instead of saying "it is possible", "it may be that", and "I myself believe".
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by SarathW » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:32 am

Will this be any help?

Page 42:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

=======================
22. Eradication of the Akusala Cittas by the four
classes of Aryan disciples.
A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts).
A Sakadàgàmi (Once-Returner), who has attained
the second stage of Sainthood, weakens the potentiality of
the 9th and 10th types of consciousness, because he has
only attenuated the two Fetters—Kàmaràga (Sense-desire)
and Pañigha (Hatred).
==========
Please compare this to page 92 diagram
=============
To me it appears above Sotapanna and Sakadagami have not attain any Jhana.
I may be wrong.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by Kumara » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:28 am

Sorry. I left out replying to this one earlier.
santa100 wrote:No, logic dictates that Saddhanusari and Dhammanusari will have at most: seven PLUS the remaining lifetime it takes for them to realize the fruit of stream-entry, which is NOT what SN 13.1 said. SN 13.1 precisely said "at most seven remaining lifetimes".
I wonder if I'm a bit obtuse here. I can't get your logic. Maybe we don't have the same idea of what "seven remaining lifetimes" means. Anyway, I'm content to leave this as it is. Anyway, BB has replied.
By the way, MN 14 was referenced by Ven. Bodhi in his "The Jhanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pali Suttas". He further explains:
[MN 14:]"Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery, rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures."

[24] The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a "noble disciple" (ariya-sāvaka). Though the term ariya-sāvaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer....
Translating sammappaññāya as "perfect wisdom" suggests more than what the passage says. (Shouldn't only arahants have "perfect wisdom"?) I think Aj Thanissaro's choice "right discernment" is more accurate, and needn't imply sotapatti. It can however mean having "entered on the fixed course of rightness".
I'm not just a monk. I'm a human being. — Sayadaw U Jotika

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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:25 am

btw, check AN 2.36. Also about "returners" (without jhanas) and "non-returners" (with jhanas). :coffee:

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Re: Stream-enterers and Once-returners No Jhānas?

Post by abhaya » Thu May 11, 2017 3:09 pm

We need to keep in mind and remind ourselves that the commentaries are just that, not the Thatāgatas own words, We should practice not to read in-to and rely on the commentaries ( or others...visuddhi-magga and the Abhidhamma), because they will definitely throw you off from your practice, from... the right path of liberation.

In regard to stream-enterers and once-returners having jhāna or having no-jhāna...In the suttas them-selves they dont expressively say this. It is in the commentaries that say or give hints that they do attain jhāna. But there are some exceptions in the suttas that might incline one to think or believe that they do attain jhāna.

First lets talk about AN 3:94 I believe this a very good example how the commentaries are far-fetched in there interpretation, if one would just read the sutta with-out reading the commentaries, one would think that this is in reference to a Stream-enterer attaining non-returning and afterwards enters and dwells in the first jhāna. (with no mention of once-returner)



AN 3:94 Autumn
"Bhikkhus, just as, in the autumn, when the sky is clear and cloudless, the sun, ascending in the sky, dispels all darkness from space as it shines and beams and radiates, so too, when the dust-free, stainless Dhamma-eye arises in the noble disciple, then, together with the arising of vision, the noble disciple abandons three fetters: personal-existence view, doubt, and wrong grasp of behavior and observances. n.538

"Afterward, when he departs from two states, longing and ill will, then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination; If, bhikkhus, the noble disciple should pass away on that occasion, there is no fetter bound by which he might return to this world." n.539

538
Mp explains the Dhammacakkhu with reference to the commentarial conception of momentary path experience as the “eye of the path of stream-enterer that comprehends the dhamma of the four noble truths.

539
this phrase normally denotes the attainment of non-returning. Mp, however, identifies this disciple as a “jhāna non-returner” (jhānanāgāmi), that is, a stream-enterer or once-returner who has also attains jhāna. Though such a practitioner has not yet eliminated the two fetters of sensual desire and ill-will, by attaining jhāna he or she is bound to be reborn taking another rebirth in the sense sphere.


I've also added another sutta AN10:219 where the notes mentioned the word “jhāna non-returner” (jhānanāgāmi) , here again it is the commentaries interpretation that we should use caution.

AN 10:219 The Deed-Born Body

"A woman or a man should develop this liberation of mind by loving-kindness. A woman or a man cannot take this body with them when they go. Mortals have mind as their core.

"[The noble disciple] understands: 'Whatever bad deed I did here in the past with this deed-born body is all to be experienced here. It will not follow along n.2191 When the liberation of mind by loving-kindness has been developed in this way, it leads to non-returning for a wise bhikkhu here who does not penetrate to a further liberation. n.2193


AN N.2191 Mp: "By means of loving-kindness, .the feeling that would have been experienced upon rebirth is cut off, and thus it does not follow one along. This is the reflection of a noble person who is a stream-enterer or a once-returner." Presumably, the bad kamma is all to be experienced here (sabbaṃ taṃ idha vedanıyaṃ), in this life, and will not follow along (na taṃ anugaṃ bhavissati) because his next rebirth will be in the form realm, where there is no painful experience, and he will attain nibbāna in the form realm without returning to this world.

AN n.2193 Mp calls this the state of a "jhāna non-returner" (jhānānāgamitā). Such persons have realized the lower two fruits and attained the jhānas, but have not yet really reached the stage of non-returner. By the karmic power of their jhānas they will be reborn in the form realm, where they will attain the higher two paths and fruits without ever returning to the sense sphere; thus they are called "jhāna non-returners." The "further liberation" (uttariṃ vimutti) is arahantship. See too p. 1664, note 539.


2nd.
We will look at two suttas separately, but when looking at them as a whole ...one may incline to believe that the Sotapanna attains jhāna.

first sutta
SN 55:5 Sāriputta (2)
Then the Venerable Sariputta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. The Blessed One then said to him:
"Sariputta, this is said: 'A factor for stream-entry, a factor for stream-entry.' What now, Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry?"

"Association with superior persons, venerable sir, is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for streamentry.

"Good, good, Sariputta! Association with superior persons, Sariputta, is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.

"Sariputta, this is said: 'The stream, the stream.' What now, Sariputta, is the stream?"

"This Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is the stream; that right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"Good, good, Sariputta! This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view ... right concentration.

"Sariputta, this is said: 'A stream-enterer, a stream-enterer.' What now, Sariputta, is a stream-enterer?"
"One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path, venerable sir, is called a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan."
"Good, good, Sariputta! One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan."

2nd. sutta
DN 22 Mahāsatipṭṭthāna Sutta
(the section on the N8FP)

'And what, monks, is Right Concentration? Here, a monk, detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhāna, which is with thinking and pondering, born of detachment, filled with delight and joy. And with the subsiding of thinking and pondering, by gaining inner tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters and remains in the second jhāna, which is without thinking and pondering, born of concentration, filled with delight and joy. And with the fading away of delight, remaining imperturbable, mindful and clearly aware, he experiences in himself the joy of which the Noble Ones say: "Happy is he who dwells with equanimity and mindfulness", he enters the third jhāna. And, having given up pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of former gladness and sadness, he enters and remains in the fourth jhāna, which is beyond pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness. This is called Right Concentration. And that, monks, is called the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering.'

extra sutta:
AN 5:14

"And what is the power of concentration? Here, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination.. With the subsiding of thought and examination, he enters and dwells in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences pleasure with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: 'He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily. With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, he enters and dwells in the fourth jhāna, neither painful n o r pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity. This is called the power of concentration.


hope this was helpful...Your brother in the Dhamma Rev.AbhayaRatana (4th. year as Sāmaṇera)

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