After Warder

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

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Reductor
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After Warder

Post by Reductor » Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:41 am

Hey All,

I'm using Warder with the understanding that it has a great deal more in it than I will be able to pick up the first time. But there will come a time when I need something more: what is suggested?

My main goal is to read the canonical texts. A comment of Bhikkhu Bodhi's, that I read some place long ago, stated that Warder was not a broad education in the canonical Pali, but was a text on the Pali of the Digha (apologies if I've misquoted him - it's an old memory). How to be broader in understanding?

Going further than that, how does a westerner like me, who's distant from any place offering Pali classes, go about learning commentary level Pali? (I'm unlikely to get to that point, but am curious.)

Anyway, thanks for reading this; I look forward to any help.

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tiltbillings
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Re: After Warder

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:07 am

Reductor wrote:Hey All,

I'm using Warder with the understanding that it has a great deal more in it than I will be able to pick up the first time. But there will come a time when I need something more: what is suggested?

My main goal is to read the canonical texts. A comment of Bhikkhu Bodhi's, that I read some place long ago, stated that Warder was not a broad education in the canonical Pali, but was a text on the Pali of the Digha (apologies if I've misquoted him - it's an old memory). How to be broader in understanding?

Going further than that, how does a westerner like me, who's distant from any place offering Pali classes, go about learning commentary level Pali? (I'm unlikely to get to that point, but am curious.)

Anyway, thanks for reading this; I look forward to any help.
Warder is generally good for sutta Pali, but commentarial Pali is a different beast. Ven Dhammanando and Kare can give you good advice, they are excellent Pali scholars. Also, write (a real letter, not e-mail) to Ven Bodhi asking his opinion. In the meantime get a hold of PALI READER with Notes and Glossary by Dines Andersen. You can get a copy (make sure it has the glossary) for less than $20.00. Good sutta translation practice. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ali+Reader

The glossary in this book is what makes it of high value, and the book gives you a lot of textual/sutta stuff to translate.


Also, if you do not have it, Steven Collins' Pali Grammar for Students may be of value.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Dhammanando
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Re: After Warder

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:39 am

I would suggest you start by studying Charles Duroiselle’s Practical Grammar of the Pāli Language and (if you can get hold of them) the second and third parts of A.P. Buddhadatta’s Pali Course. If you want to read Jātakas or the Dhammapada Atthakathā, then besides Tilt’s recommendation you should also download De Silva’s textbook from the same website as Duroiselle’s — it’s a good aid to building the vocabulary that you’ll need for these works.

Then read well-translated texts alongside the original Pali. Minor Readings and Illustrator —Ñāṇamoli’s translation of the Khuddakapāṭha and its commentary— is a great one to start with. Another good one is Dispeller of Delusion, Ñāṇamoli’s translation of the Sammohavinodanī (Vibhaṅga Atthakathā). And when you can’t figure out what’s going on and how on earth the translator renders some passage the way he does, post your queries here or go pay a visit to the monks at your nearest Sri Lankan or Burmese vihāra.

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Kare
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Re: After Warder

Post by Kare » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:31 pm

You have already got some very good advice here. I might add that since Warder uses texts from the Digha, you might try to read the full Digha after you finish Warder. Then you will already have studied parts of the Digha, so you will often find yourself on familiar ground. You will also get a few new challenges.

But there is no study edition of the Digha that I know of, so for further studies Glenn Wallis, "Buddhavacana, a Pali Reader", might be useful. This is a collection of suttas from different Nikayas, each with its glossary and ample space for notes.
Mettāya,
Kåre

Reductor
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Re: After Warder

Post by Reductor » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:02 am

Hi All,

I really appreciate the three of you taking time to answer my post. You've provided me several good paths forward and I'm quite excited. Thanks!
Tilt wrote: Also, write (a real letter, not e-mail) to Ven Bodhi asking his opinion.
I've got a letter going in another window. When BB gets back to me I'll post again in this thread.

And thanks for pointing out PALI READER. I'd been aware of Steve Collins' book, though I haven't bought it, but was not of Mr. Andersen's, which is inexpensive enough for a (mostly) broke bloke like myself.
Dhammanando wrote: I would suggest you start by studying Charles Duroiselle’s Practical Grammar of the Pāli Language and (if you can get hold of them) the second and third parts of A.P. Buddhadatta’s Pali Course.
Are these for canonical Pali or for commentarial or for both?
or go pay a visit to the monks at your nearest Sri Lankan or Burmese vihāra.
Haha. That would be a long, long trip. So long as the internet isn't gutted in the next two or three years, I'll post here.
Kare wrote:I might add that since Warder uses texts from the Digha, you might try to read the full Digha after you finish Warder. ... further studies Glenn Wallis, "Buddhavacana, a Pali Reader", might be useful.
I had thought I'd buy the PTS Digha at some point and read the whole thing, as you suggest. Is it a worthwhile purchase, or are electronic versions, like the SLTP, suitable stand-ins?

Also, another member posted a review of Wallis' reader and found it a bit lacking - I take it you have a different opinion of it?

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Dhammanando
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Re: After Warder

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:27 am

Reductor wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: I would suggest you start by studying Charles Duroiselle’s Practical Grammar of the Pāli Language and (if you can get hold of them) the second and third parts of A.P. Buddhadatta’s Pali Course.
Are these for canonical Pali or for commentarial or for both?
Commentarial. The passages for translation in Buddhadatta's works are drawn primarily (though not exclusively) from the Jātaka Atthakathā. Duroiselle's work is likewise based on the Sanskrit-influenced grammar of the commentaries. Having said that, even those not interested in the commentaries would do well to at least read chapter xiv, which is by far the best overview of Pali syntax in English.

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Kare
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Re: After Warder

Post by Kare » Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:19 pm

Reductor wrote:
Kare wrote:I might add that since Warder uses texts from the Digha, you might try to read the full Digha after you finish Warder. ... further studies Glenn Wallis, "Buddhavacana, a Pali Reader", might be useful.
I had thought I'd buy the PTS Digha at some point and read the whole thing, as you suggest. Is it a worthwhile purchase, or are electronic versions, like the SLTP, suitable stand-ins?

Also, another member posted a review of Wallis' reader and found it a bit lacking - I take it you have a different opinion of it?
After I finished Warder, I bought the PTS Digha and the commentaries and started reading. The Digha texts were recognizable, but the commentary gave me a slap in my face. It took a lot of patience and headscratching to start finding some meaning in it. The point is, however, to be stubborn and not give up. Gradually even some parts of the commentary started making sense, and if you persist, more and more of it will open itself to you.

As for the Wallis reader, it seems the former poster had some unrealistic hopes. I agree, however, with his description "So after working through a couple of passages I decided that this book offered nothing more than I would get simply working with a dictionary and an already published translation." Yes, it is not a primary. You don't get excessive help, but after finishing Warder I don't think you will need that much extra help. The positive side of the book is that you get a collection of texts and the necessary glossaries in one handy volume. You don't have to haul a large dictionary along with volumes of the Tipitaka to read those texts. The poster also complains that the translations of the text not always comply with the dictionary. In fact, that is a good thing. Once you have mastered the basics, it is useful to see that translation is not an exact science. There are always several ways of formulating an idea.
Mettāya,
Kåre

pulga
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Re: After Warder

Post by pulga » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:32 pm

Has anyone seen Yang-Gyu An's The Buddha's Last Days: Buddhaghosa's Commentary of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta published by the PaIi Text Society? Is it worth using as a basis to familiarize oneself with Buddhaghosa's style of writing?

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Re: After Warder

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:48 pm

pulga wrote:Has anyone seen Yang-Gyu An's The Buddha's Last Days: Buddhaghosa's Commentary of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta published by the PaIi Text Society? Is it worth using as a basis to familiarize oneself with Buddhaghosa's style of writing?
It's a fine translation and would be worth using for the stated purpose. However, if one wanted to begin with some commentary to suttas in the first four Nikāyas, those of Bhikkhu Bodhi to the Brahmajāla, Mahānidāna, Sāmaññaphala and Mūlapariyāya Suttas are available at a fraction of the price.

Derek
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Re: After Warder

Post by Derek » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:37 pm

Reductor wrote:what is suggested?
Michael:

When I was studying Pali, I used the Geiger/Norman Grammar and of course the PED.

pulga
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Re: After Warder

Post by pulga » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:14 pm

Dhammanando wrote: It's a fine translation and would be worth using for the stated purpose. However, if one wanted to begin with some commentary to suttas in the first four Nikāyas, those of Bhikkhu Bodhi to the Brahmajāla, Mahānidāna, Sāmaññaphala and Mūlapariyāya Suttas are available at a fraction of the price.
Thank you, Bhante. My only experience in trying to learn commentarial Pali comes from an attempt to work through passages from the Visuddhimagga using Ven. Nanamoli as my guide. I admit that I probably gave up too soon: it was the unpacking of the elaborate compounds that did me in. But I think it's worth giving it another try.

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Re: After Warder

Post by Reductor » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:52 am

Dhammanando wrote:Commentarial. The passages for translation in Buddhadatta's works are drawn primarily (though not exclusively) from the Jātaka Atthakathā. Duroiselle's work is likewise based on the Sanskrit-influenced grammar of the commentaries. Having said that, even those not interested in the commentaries would do well to at least read chapter xiv, which is by far the best overview of Pali syntax in English.
Thank you for the clarification, Bhante.
Kare wrote:After I finished Warder, I bought the PTS Digha and the commentaries and started reading. The Digha texts were recognizable, but the commentary gave me a slap in my face. It took a lot of patience and headscratching to start finding some meaning in it.

...

As for the Wallis reader, it seems the former poster had some unrealistic hopes. ...
Thank you for the encouragement, Kare, and for your thoughts on "Buddhavacana" (and on readers in general).

It's extremely helpful to get the voices of experience that are yours, Dhammanando's, Tilt's and of all the other posters on this forum.

Reductor
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Re: After Warder

Post by Reductor » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:59 am

Derek wrote:
Reductor wrote:what is suggested?
Michael:

When I was studying Pali, I used the Geiger/Norman Grammar and of course the PED.
Thanks for the suggestion Derek.

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Mkoll
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Re: After Warder

Post by Mkoll » Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:48 pm

In the meantime get a hold of PALI READER with Notes and Glossary by Dines Andersen. You can get a copy (make sure it has the glossary) for less than $20.00. Good sutta translation practice. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ali+Reader
Thanks, tilt; hadn't heard of that one.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Dhammanando
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Re: After Warder

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Mkoll wrote:
In the meantime get a hold of PALI READER with Notes and Glossary by Dines Andersen. You can get a copy (make sure it has the glossary) for less than $20.00. Good sutta translation practice. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... ali+Reader
Thanks, tilt; hadn't heard of that one.
The second volume —the glossary— is available online:
https://ia600407.us.archive.org/32/item ... 132082.pdf

It seems that the work is now out of copyright.

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