Eradicating sex drive

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
Samma
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Samma » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:31 am

Ah a controversial topic, and interesting one.
Biological sex drive eradicated...of course not. Texts clearly say arahants had wet dreams right? But the psychologically stressful side...why not?

There was a story with ajahn chah and sumedho maybe? Chah asked when a group of women came if he liked the look of them. The other monk said something like: I like, but I don't want. And Chah seemd to like that answer a lot.
BubbaBuddhist wrote:I love my life with my operas and my sweet woman, and my Oreos and my morning coffee (not necessarily in that order). Funny how people try to convince me that I'm not really happy,I'm just deluded into thinking I'm happy.BB
I sincerely hope by this point you have come to some understanding of the difference between worldly joy and unworldly joy. Its easily enough stated that what you are talking about is worldly happiness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

More light hearted, did you miss all that stuff about oreos being as addictive as cocaine? :tongue:
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/10/16/ore ... s-cocaine/

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manas
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by manas » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:54 am

Whenever I see the title of this topic, I think of this

Image

Seriously, this idea that we can somehow just 'eradicate' sex desire, something so ingrained in our nature that it doesn't totally disappear until the anagami stage - which most of us, if we are honest with ourselves, will probably not reach in this lifetime - misses the mark, imho. I think the focus should be less on 'eradication' and more on 'applying mindfulness and wisdom in dealing with it' - cos it's going to be around for a while.

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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manas
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by manas » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:13 am

BubbaBuddhist wrote:I love my life with my operas and my sweet woman, and my Oreos and my morning coffee (not necessarily in that order). Funny how people try to convince me that I'm not really happy,I'm just deluded into thinking I'm happy.BB
Bubba, that sounds kind of appealing, except I would trade the oreos for tim-tams...

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Dhammanando
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:23 am

Samma wrote:Texts clearly say arahants had wet dreams right?
No. The texts state that it isn't a Vinaya offence when a bhikkhu has a nocturnal emission, but whether or not an arahant can have one was a disputed point in early Buddhism. The Theravadins sided with the anti-snoregasm camp.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:32 am

Dhammanando wrote: anti-snoregasm
Brilliant. You are my hero.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:46 pm

A new study from Connecticut College shows that Oreos are as addictive as cocaine, at least for lab rats. According to the new study, eating the iconic black and white cookies activated more neurons in the rat brain’s “pleasure center” than drugs such as cocaine.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/10/16/ore ... z2jD0IZ1mi
I've always been happy I'm not a lab rat. :tongue: I can have three of the cursed things with coffee and be done with them. Lab rats aren't famous for their impulse control, I suppose.
I sincerely hope by this point you have come to some understanding of the difference between worldly joy and unworldly joy. Its easily enough stated that what you are talking about is worldly happiness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
And yet, I live in the world, therefore my experiences are of the worldly sort. I find my spiritual experiences a complement of the worldly. There is a theme in these threads that the sexual act is physical pleasure only. I wonder if many people have experienced a deep spiritual and emotional bond wherein sexual expression is a means of loving communication? I get the feeling this may be rare. It took me a long time for all the pieces to fall into place, come to think of it.
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 pm

BubbaBuddhist wrote:I've always been happy I'm not a lab rat.
Image
BubbaBuddhist wrote:There is a theme in these threads that the sexual act is physical pleasure only. I wonder if many people have experienced a deep spiritual and emotional bond wherein sexual expression is a means of loving communication?
Loving communication can happen in many ways, so the question is: Why would someone choose sex except due to the physical pleasure component? In other words, what does it offer in terms of loving communication that is unique to the sex act, that is neither fueled by greed for the sense pleasure it is nor by aversion for the urge itself?

To put things crassly: where is there a case of someone tongue-tied, unable to lovingly communicate except by dropping trouser? Where is there a case of the sex act not being seen as completed by those engaged in it due to orgasm, but instead being seen as completed pre-orgasm because "the communication is done"?

To say that sexual pleasure isn't important but that sexual acts are, is either delusion or tantra... but I repeat myself.

Sex isn't a pleasure that's worse or better than others - I'm not puritanical here - but it is a sensual pleasure no matter how that cake is eaten, and it simply ought to be clearly seen as such.

:shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Samma
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Samma » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:17 pm

Not being an offense, I assumed they had them, and it was not a big deal.
But sure, in the end I guess the facts are unclear...
Any sources?
brian ruhe talks about how this was part of what cased the split.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7aOCB_oaA
Others believed they had not eradicated all the demons so arahants were still doing it or somesuch.

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manas
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by manas » Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:21 pm

BubbaBuddhist wrote:There is a theme in these threads that the sexual act is physical pleasure only. I wonder if many people have experienced a deep spiritual and emotional bond wherein sexual expression is a means of loving communication?
Having recently had a glimpse of what the fullest expression of this might be like, I feel a changed man, and it has changed my attitude towards romantic love, and towards women also (I'm seeing more the human being first, the attractive body second - or at least, this is the direction in which my heart has shifted). Sure there's pain when it comes to an end - as all things in this life do - but sexual expression that flows from mutual respect and affection - metta - is in a different league, and should not be classed alongside sex for the sake of physical satisfaction alone, imo. They are not the same.

I used to look at women either with the desire to possess and enjoy, or with the irritation that one who is trying hard to be completely celibate can feel sometimes (I do empathize). But now, I look into their eyes more; I look for kindness, truthfulness, and other good qualities. Sure I still notice their physical attractiveness, but that is far from being all that matters.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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kmath
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by kmath » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:22 pm

manas wrote:
BubbaBuddhist wrote:There is a theme in these threads that the sexual act is physical pleasure only. I wonder if many people have experienced a deep spiritual and emotional bond wherein sexual expression is a means of loving communication?
Having recently had a glimpse of what the fullest expression of this might be like, I feel a changed man, and it has changed my attitude towards romantic love, and towards women also (I'm seeing more the human being first, the attractive body second - or at least, this is the direction in which my heart has shifted). Sure there's pain when it comes to an end - as all things in this life do - but sexual expression that flows from mutual respect and affection - metta - is in a different league, and should not be classed alongside sex for the sake of physical satisfaction alone, imo. They are not the same.

I used to look at women either with the desire to possess and enjoy, or with the irritation that one who is trying hard to be completely celibate can feel sometimes (I do empathize). But now, I look into their eyes more; I look for kindness, truthfulness, and other good qualities. Sure I still notice their physical attractiveness, but that is far from being all that matters.

:anjali:
I'm with manas and BB. My experience with sex is that it is an extremely positive and uplifting experience.

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:59 pm

seen as completed by those engaged in it due to orgasm
Oh Dave--there is SO much more to lovemaking than that little moment at the end. So very much more. It's a foolish man who thinks that's what it's all about. I am surprised you don't know this. No wonder you hold the act of love in such little regard.

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:51 am

Sex or no sex, it's about the mind.

We can be intoxicated with sex and build identity around pleasure and sex. Or we can be intoxicated with being unattached to sex and build identity around that. There is no doubt that for many of us, sex is a major driving force, hence it merits more attention.

What is more important, I think, is how do we work with all that? How do we practice, being sexual creatures full of urges and cravings?

Edit: inserted an important comma!
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:55 am

I'm sorry to have provided a simplistic dichotomy, but I mean to emphasize that the pursuit of sensual pleasure is what makes it problematic; whatever romantic/etc. layers one also has in fact contribute to the overall sensual attraction involved in the pursuit of relationship with a significant other.

To be brief, these sorts of things (sensual pursuits generally) serve as an obstruction to meditation. That's the only point I mean to make.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Dan74
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by Dan74 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:59 am

daverupa wrote:I'm sorry to have provided a simplistic dichotomy, but I mean to emphasize that the pursuit of sensual pleasure is what makes it problematic; whatever romantic/etc. layers one also has in fact contribute to the overall sensual attraction involved in the pursuit of relationship with a significant other.

To be brief, this serves as an obstruction to meditation. That's all.
Meditation can easily become a kind of a solipsistic navel gazing which 'a relationship with a significant other' may be a good antidote for. Not the only antidote or maybe not even the best, but wholesome relationships of all sorts are great at pulling us out of that precious mind space that abhors all disturbance and worldly tasks, a false semblance of true equanimity and provide a true testing ground for all those wonderful qualities we've been cultivating.

This is not to say that romantic relationships are necessary or even good for practice. Such blanket statements are meaningless in themselves. There is a time and place for things and a time and place to let things go.
_/|\_

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daverupa
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Re: Eradicating sex drive

Post by daverupa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:10 am

"True" testing ground? That's kooky. I don't doubt there are benefits, many benefits - humans, you know, evolved for this to be healthy in myriad ways - but there are better and greater benefits that those benefits get in the way of.

:shrug:

It's a very simple point. I think we're talking past each other.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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