We can't all ordain...right?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
arijitmitter
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by arijitmitter »

Yes Mr Snyder. I guess there are 2 possible choices

a ) no sex and in that case new members will have to come from outside world

b ) supervised sex for procreation and 7 precepts for those under 25 (trainee monks, shall we say)

But it is possible even if we accept that 8 precepts only for those above 25. Perhaps if such a community can be established where there is no commercial activity, people exist only for good of their fellow beings (or be thrown out of the island) and for attaining Nibbana, in time the world will change (maybe a few thousand years) by seeing the example.

Enough energy has gone into making cell phones with 15 MP cameras. We are no happier than when phones had no cameras or when we had no phones. Human race has to reevaluate its options or perish.

Sole problem - one can either be a Theravadin (practicing) or a billionaire. Theravadin billionaire is an oxymoron of sorts.
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by DNS »

supervised sex


:shock:
Must resist temptation to ask . . . .
arijitmitter wrote: a ) no sex and in that case new members will have to come from outside world
Aren't you in India? See my post here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p265161

How far are you from Shravasti? There is a center similar to what you are requesting right there.
arijitmitter
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by arijitmitter »

By supervised sex I meant sex for procreation and not recreation. Recreational sex has potential to upset monks by bringing in lust followed by envy, jealousy and so on. I understand this is the sticky part of my hypothesis and needs more work.

I am not very far from Shravasti, maybe 500 miles. I have plans to visit Bodh Gaya coming January and then Sarnath sometime next year. Thank you for giving me my third destination. In the nature of Shravasti there are many Hindu ashrams. Some quite large, although not for 10,000 people. Maybe few hundred.

But it is no where close to being a nation by itself. A spiritual nation with no commerce, currency, private ownership. Where people exist solely for attaining Nibbana.
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reflection
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by reflection »

BlindJoeDeath wrote:
reflection wrote:Why is a hypothetical situation that will never happen worth thinking about?
Wikipedia wrote: "A thought experiment or Gedankenexperiment (from German) considers some hypothesis, theory or principle for the purpose of thinking through its consequences. Given the structure of the experiment, it may or may not be possible to actually perform it, and, in the case that it is possible for it to be performed, there need be no intention of any kind to actually perform the experiment in question. The common goal of a thought experiment is to explore the potential consequences of the principle in question."
I think there are plenty of hypothetical situations (that will never happen) that get thought about on a daily basis. Schrödinger's cat, Maxwell's Demon, the list goes on. I don't think one should dwell on them too long, but anything that makes us contemplate and evaluate our situation can't be worthless IMO.
Sure, but usually in a thought experiment, there is a reason behind it. I'm trying to see what your reasons are for this, because I can't think of any myself.

But that aside, if we all ordained monks/nuns would take over the jobs. 10 preceptors are ordained, but are allowed to do many things still. Also there are Mahayana monks/nuns who don't follow all the precepts and farm and cook. Construction and other things not included in the precepts are things all monks/nuns already do a lot.
hermitwin
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by hermitwin »

Your argument is flawed.
If my son wants to be a teacher, then I ask him,
"what if everyone wants to become teachers?"
Then, there would be no farmers and doctors.

You see how foolish this type of question is?



BlindJoeDeath wrote:I was thinking today about the many commendable things people do within their own particular careers. Whether it be working as a doctor,nurse, farmer and so on, somebody has to do these things. We need engineers, contractors, construction workers and so on if we want to keep living the way we do. These choices are valued and appreciated daily, without a doubt. However, I know that the choice to ordain as a monk is also considered a very noble decision.

Regarding ordination, I want to propose a hypothetical question that came to me earlier. What if monks somehow became the majority? We would have to seriously re-shape how we live our lives, no? If everyone wanted to be a monk that would be great (assuming they were doing it for the right reasons), but who would work these other jobs mentioned above? We would either have to go back to a much simpler way of life, or advise that individuals study and work in the world before being allowed to ordain (like the Ashram system in Hindu thought). I know this isn't likely to ever happen, but I think it's worth thinking about anyway. It certainly makes me appreciate the reciprocity of the monk/lay person relationship.

I know that in certain Mahayana temples the monks do take care of their own food and basic necessities, and in some sense they are a sustainable mini-community of their own. However, I am pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that the whole concept of monk-hood in early Buddhism relies on there being a lay community to sustain them (via alms round).

This might be rather jumbled, but as I said, it's worth thinking about IMO. Thoughts?
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by chownah »

hermitwin,
I agree that to think of this in terms of some specific avocation being over represented in society is not very likely and not very productive but the direction that technology is headed we very well could get to the point where half of the people on the world will not need to work......and it might not take a really long time for this to happen except for the fact that the present economy requires continual growth so the existing economy will have to change in some way it seems as technology takes over what are now human tasks. This is a situation which is sort of similar to the OP and one that is really more serious and plausible I think.......there are several issues that might be raised concerning how this might play out.
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BlindJoeDeath
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by BlindJoeDeath »

Thanks to everyone who answered this without being so critical. It wasn't a serious burning question of mine, just something I thought was interesting. I hardly see how it compares to being a teacher seeing as teachers have a salary. The whole point was that monks are reliant upon the lay community for purposes of food and nowadays donations as well. I never was under the belief that this would be happening at some point in the future.


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Viscid
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by Viscid »

I've been meaning to ask this question generally for a while:

Would a monastery have to break totally from the Theravadin tradition if they wish to be self-sufficient? (Farming, perhaps, or selling products such as pottery or food.) I fantasize about a Theravadin monastery that operates much like a Trappist monastery to fund itself, rather than relying completely on laypeople. There seems to be a niche for it-- requiring a dedicated lay community seems unnecessarily prohibitive.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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reflection
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by reflection »

I don't know about breaking with Theravada, but it would break the monastic code on various grounds. But I don't see what is limiting about dependency on the lay people. It is good because it forces connection with the outside world, not turning into some insiders-only club.
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by Viscid »

reflection wrote:But I don't see what is limiting about dependency on the lay people. It is good because it forces connection with the outside world, not turning into some insiders-only club.
I was thinking for geographically isolated areas, especially in the United States, where a dedicated Buddhist lay community is perhaps not viable.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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kmath
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by kmath »

Viscid wrote:I've been meaning to ask this question generally for a while:

Would a monastery have to break totally from the Theravadin tradition if they wish to be self-sufficient? (Farming, perhaps, or selling products such as pottery or food.) I fantasize about a Theravadin monastery that operates much like a Trappist monastery to fund itself, rather than relying completely on laypeople. There seems to be a niche for it-- requiring a dedicated lay community seems unnecessarily prohibitive.
This could be completely wrong but isn't that how Zen originally broke off from Theravada?
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Anagarika
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by Anagarika »

Viscid wrote:I've been meaning to ask this question generally for a while:

Would a monastery have to break totally from the Theravadin tradition if they wish to be self-sufficient? (Farming, perhaps, or selling products such as pottery or food.) I fantasize about a Theravadin monastery that operates much like a Trappist monastery to fund itself, rather than relying completely on laypeople. There seems to be a niche for it-- requiring a dedicated lay community seems unnecessarily prohibitive.
I've wondered about this, too. The majesty and brilliance of the Vinaya code is such that one would hesitate to mess with it in modern times, yet I have observed some Theravada monks make some small concessions in order to function in the west. These concessions are undertaken with some reluctance, but with a sense that certain functions would be impossible without some "tweaking" of the Code. For example, one of the monks is a Dhamma teacher, and he drives himself (old small car) to the various sanghas that support his Wat in the US. He has undertaken to drive because there is often no one to drive him from where he lives. He chooses to teach the Dhamma vs. stay at home and not teach.

Is it possible to endeavor to be a good Vinaya monk in the west, and still make some accommodations in order to survive and thrive? It seems to me that there needs to be an understanding that we can't let Theravada die out in the west over issues like transportation, food resourcing, and similar concerns. I recall one monk in the west relating that he had started a new monastery dependent on daily meal dana from some Asian locals in town. This small group of monks went for days without eating because the locals forgot to bring food. One of these monks is a Pali Dhamma scholar...I'd hate to think that he'd die in a remote cabin somewhere simply because in the west no one cared to remember to bring him a daily meal.

I don't want to see Theravada die off in the west, or see itself in a distant third place in the west behind the leading Mahayana sanghas. I personally see Theravada as the strongest link of the Buddhist chain, and it should never find itself imperiled due to an inability to function in modern western society.
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reflection
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by reflection »

Viscid wrote:
reflection wrote:But I don't see what is limiting about dependency on the lay people. It is good because it forces connection with the outside world, not turning into some insiders-only club.
I was thinking for geographically isolated areas, especially in the United States, where a dedicated Buddhist lay community is perhaps not viable.
Monasteries seem to pop up here and there, so it seems sort of working.

I think monks & nuns also ordain to in future times be able to pass on their teachings. If there are few lay people around, where will new students come from? Monks & nuns who want to get away from everything and sit by themselves only, I don't know if I find that inspiring.

But there are also stories of monasteries that had a hard time getting support when they started out. I think most in the west had that issue. Still many seem to survive, so I don't think it is that much a problem.
hermitwin
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by hermitwin »

The highest rate of ordination was in Tibet and mongollia ,
The number was as high as 25% of the men before the communist took over.
The Mahayana school has solved the problem. They grow their own food.



reflection wrote:
Viscid wrote:
reflection wrote:But I don't see what is limiting about dependency on the lay people. It is good because it forces connection with the outside world, not turning into some insiders-only club.
I was thinking for geographically isolated areas, especially in the United States, where a dedicated Buddhist lay community is perhaps not viable.
Monasteries seem to pop up here and there, so it seems sort of working.

I think monks & nuns also ordain to in future times be able to pass on their teachings. If there are few lay people around, where will new students come from? Monks & nuns who want to get away from everything and sit by themselves only, I don't know if I find that inspiring.

But there are also stories of monasteries that had a hard time getting support when they started out. I think most in the west had that issue. Still many seem to survive, so I don't think it is that much a problem.
kilanta
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Re: We can't all ordain...right?

Post by kilanta »

arijitmitter wrote:As far as continuation of human race goes there will have to be some sex for procreational purpose.
After giving some thought about this I fail to find any reason why continuation of human race would be something that necessarily should be endorsed from theravadan point of view. I'm not knowledgeable about the scripture at all, but isn't it so that this would actually just mean there is no craving at all as people simply have found a way to let go of this life and thus, at some point, the last one gives up and produces no future generations?
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