Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance and Wi

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daverupa
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by daverupa »

Ben wrote:considering the hysterical opposition and criminal economic vandalism
Well-put, that.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
I did put forth a very straightforward response to your abysmally ignorant opinion about Obama.
The response neither explained why he couldn't make most americans undrestand that poor people have the right to live (!); neither it explained why he couldn't make poor people see that many rich people are paying less taxes than them.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Even though I don't have a detailed knowledge of american politics, I have put forward two arguments explaining why, imo, Obama is a bad president. Since I admited that I didn't have detailed knowledge you guys didn't even bother puting counter-arguments forward. "Oh, the poor ignorant guy. He has no idea." The two points stand _ and there's more. But let's focus on these for now.
I did put forth a very straightforward response to your abysmally ignorant opinion about Obama.
The response neither explained why he couldn't make most americans undrestand that poor people have the right to live (!); neither it explained why he couldn't make poor people see that many rich people are paying less taxes than them.
Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote: Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.
The dhamma is subtle. Not allowing people to die because they are poor is obvious. So the comparisson is not good. Again you didn't adress the issue.

But let me be more concrete. For example, why does MSNBC not have the same strategy as Fox "News"? They could do it without lying. The republicans are raging fascists! It's scary that one of these lunatics can rise to power and have access to the nuclear codes. He could have played the Jesus card: Jesus emphasised generosity again and again; he emphasised love thy neighbour; the republicans are using Jesus against the american people. That joke of a show that was Glen Beck's should have been put down the second he called Obama, Hitler. There are limits to freedom of expression. These Fox "News" guys say the most pathetic things, including the Hitler & Stalin argument (a quite funny one btw). Are they not accountable for their words? He could have called them what they are: racists. And I know you agree with me here: the republicans just cannot stand that a black man has power over them.

Obama won the election in no small part because the other guy was one of those obvious loonies. A pathetic, robotic, loonie. Of course there is merit. I read part of the list that dagon linked to. Half of it are lies/distortions. But he did do good things. That isn't enough to make him a good president, imo.

I already admited not to know american politics in detail and that my main source of knowledge comes from the Daily Show, so why are you being sarcastic about me knowing all of american politics because of Jon Stewart? That was precisely the thing I inicialy said was not true.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Great googaly moogaly. Obama has addressed these issues many times as have others, but even the Buddha could not convince every one of his truly true truth, and so by your lights he is a bad Buddha. Buddhism was never a majority movement in India. Naughty Buddha, not convincing everyone. Baaaad Buddha. You are simply clueless here. Obama was re-elected is a context that no other president has been re-elected in -- high unemployment, a struggling economy, which points to a fact that that he rather successfully convinced the majority of Americans of these very points. The American political and social landscapes are complicated by numerous factors, but since you watch John Stewart and know everything about American society, I don't think I need to spell it out for you.
The dhamma is subtle. Not allowing people to die because they are poor is obvious. So the comparisson is not good. Again you didn't adress the issue.
The comparison is good enough, given that you have shown no comprehension of the political and historical subtleties at play in the issues at hand.
But let me be more concrete. For example, why does MSNBC not have the same strategy as Fox "News"? They could do it without lying. The republicans are raging fascists! It's scary that one of these lunatics can rise to power and have access to the nuclear codes. He could have played the Jesus card: Jesus emphasised generosity again and again; he emphasised love thy neighbour; the republicans are using Jesus against the american people. That joke of a show that was Glen Beck's should have been put down the second he called Obama, Hitler. There are limits to freedom of expression. These Fox "News" guys say the most pathetic things, including the Hitler & Stalin argument (a quite funny one btw). Are they not accountable for their words? He could have called them what they are: racists. And I know you agree with me here: the republicans just cannot stand that a black man has power over them.
You have not a clue as to what you are talking about. This shows no understanding of what is actually going on in the Republican Party or its history, but that does not stop you from naively pontificating.
. . . imo.
And as far as your opinion goes, it is uninformed.
I already admited not to know american politics . . . .
As we clearly see. When you can actually show that you have a reasonable handle on American politics and its historical context, we can talk. Right now you are sounding as informed as the run of the mill tea-bagger.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

It's either the 4th or 5th response and you still haven't given a counter-argument to either of my points. If I'm so blatantly ignorant it should be easy to demonstrate that I'm wrong. Please adress the points.

(EDIT: When you quote me, please do so in a fair way. You misquoted me the last time. What I don't know is the details. In depth. But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.

I'm not american and I'll admit that you're right the second you convince me. Since I started this discussion with a statement of my ignorance of the complete picture, you can be sure I'm being sincere.)
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:It's either the 4th or 5th response and you still haven't given a counter-argument to either of my points. If I'm so blatantly ignorant it should be easy to demonstrate that I'm wrong. Please adress the points.
I have given you appropriate counters to your points, which seems to be going over your head.

Image

I'm not american
I know, and that does not stop you from naively pontificating about what you do not know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

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Modus.Ponens wrote: But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.
Bovine coproforms. The problems you are not addressing, don't understand/don't know are the historical problems that Obama is facing. Obama has addressed these problems of inequality in terms of speeches and in policies, but somehow or another -- according to you -- for Obama not to be a bad president he must convince enough people of the issues you think are important so that things will radically change. That things have not radically changed according to your liking, he is a bad president -- according you. But then that is just an opinion that does not take into account what it is that Obama is actually facing, an opinion that carries no weight.

When you make a comment such as this -- "The republicans are raging fascists!" -- you have no comprehension of what is going on.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by lyndon taylor »

I agree with Modens, Obama may be a lot better than some Republican alternative, but he's still basically a bad president, so far to the right, and in the pocket of big corporations, that calling himserlf a democrat is a bit of a stretch, it seems the powers that be saw the country was wanting a democrat so they entered a Republican calling himself a democrat, same with Bill Clinton, and I suspect Hillary, when democrats rush to defend such a president its evident they just want a democrat in name, not policy........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.
I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

lyndon taylor wrote:I agree with Modens, Obama may be a lot better than some Republican alternative, but he's still basically a bad president, so far to the right, and in the pocket of big corporations, that calling himserlf a democrat is a bit of a stretch, it seems the powers that be saw the country was wanting a democrat so they entered a Republican calling himself a democrat, same with Bill Clinton, and I suspect Hillary, when democrats rush to defend such a president its evident they just want a democrat in name, not policy........
{{{yawn}}}
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote: But it seems that I know enough to make two points that are not being proven false by anybody.
Bovine coproforms. The problems you are not addressing, don't understand/don't know are the historical problems that Obama is facing. Obama has addressed these problems of inequality in terms of speeches and in policies, but somehow or another -- according to you -- for Obama not to be a bad president he must convince enough people of the issues you think are important so that things will radically change. That things have not radically changed according to your liking, he is a bad president -- according you. But then that is just an opinion that does not take into account what it is that Obama is actually facing, an opinion that carries no weight.

When you make a comment such as this -- "The republicans are raging fascists!" -- you have no comprehension of what is going on.
Ok. That's more to the point, although still not there. You argue that it's a cultural problem, so it seems. That's not good enough, imo. These things I find important are actualy crucial: one is about life or death situations the poor have to face without help; I wouldn't want to be in that situation nor do I want any of my countrymen in that situation; the other could solve the budget problem, which I think it's crucial. If he cannot solve these problems adequately he's not a good president. I would admit that this would be hard to do, was it not the fact that these things are so obviously wrong and brutaly unfair, that if he can't push this forward, in my definition, no he's not a good president.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.
I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
Why he did not convince the majority? Because he cannot make a good speech if his life depended upon it, never really addressing the issues. And he has no influence on the members of his own party to get his policies implemented. And he really did not deserve to be re-elected. What the hell is his problem? It should have been easy sailing for him, the first African-American elected president, but it turns out he is just a stumble-bum, tripping over his own feet. And never, ever, ever mind any other factors at play.

Interesting, however, he did convince the majority of the voters to re-elect him, and trying to dismiss that by characterizing his opponent as an un-electable loonie is not to really address what actually took place during the campaign, what was said. The problem is that you have no argument, just an ill-formed opinion based not upon the realities of American political history.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by tiltbillings »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Ok. That's more to the point, although still not there. You argue that it's a cultural problem, so it seems. That's not good enough, imo. These things I find important are actualy crucial: one is about life or death situations the poor have to face without help; I wouldn't want to be in that situation nor do I want any of my countrymen in that situation; the other could solve the budget problem, which I think it's crucial. If he cannot solve these problems adequately he's not a good president. I would admit that this would be hard to do, was it not the fact that these things are so obviously wrong and brutaly unfair, that if he can't push this forward, in my definition, no he's not a good president.
Jesus Key-ryest. You really do not get it. Obama is the president. He is not a dictator, ruling by fiat. He has to work with the Congress, and the Republican wing of the Congress has very publicly stated early on, and showed clearly by their actions, that their goal was to make him a one term president, denying him as much as possible any success. Despite Obama's willingness to compromise, to negotiate, willingness to work with the Republicans, they would have none of it, to the point of damaging the very country they were sworn to serve. If you actually understood how the American system worked, you would understand that these problem do not rest -- never rest -- solely with the POTUS to solve. Again, the fact that he was re-elected, running on a platform of health care and tax reform, among other things, points to a fair degree of success in convincing a majority of Americans of the need for the things you are whining about as not being done by Obama.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Haters Holding US Hostage Embraced Denial, Resistance an

Post by Modus.Ponens »

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ignorance of what the situation actually is. He is not a bad president. He is a president that is in a bad situation, much of which is out of his control, much of which has to do with forces that have been at play for some long while. He is a president that has moved things forward, while the atavistic forces are pushing back against that changes that are to them extremely fearsome. The USA is changing, it is browning, it is becoming more tolerant, but there are those who find this frightening, there are those who will exploit this fear for power and money. What we are seeing with America is a fascinating struggle as it pushes forward. Obama is not a bad president. While he is far from perfect, his pushing the social agenda of health care and equality, and his twice being elected, point to, for all the turmoil and struggle, something good going on here.
I think this is where you tried to make an actual argument. Can you please point out where, in this text, it's explained why he didn't convince the large majority of americans that dying because you are poor, and have no money to treat an illness, is unacceptable? Can you also point out in the text where it says why he wasn't able to convince the majority of americans that the rich paying less taxes than the poor is unfair and obscene?
Why he did not convince the majority? Because he cannot make a good speech if his life depended upon it, never really addressing the issues. And he has no influence on the members of his own party to get his policies implemented. And he really did not deserve to be re-elected. What the hell is his problem? It should have been easy sailing for him, the first African-American elected president, but it turns out he is just a stumble-bum, tripping over his own feet. And never, ever, ever mind any other factors at play.

Interesting, however, he did convince the majority of the voters to re-elect him, and trying to dismiss that by characterizing his opponent as an un-electable loonie is not to really address what actually took place during the campaign, what was said. The problem is that you have no argument, just an ill-formed opinion based not upon the realities of American political history.
Large majority, not just majority. That's the thing. He has to reach enough of the republican voters so that republican politicians have to shut up. If the language these people understand is "Jesus", he could have used it for an actualy good purpose without lying. He also has to put a leash on Fox "News". Maybe it's too late for that part. Anyway, I admit that the taxes thing is harder, but it's still a sufficiently blatant injustice to be knocked down.

You have some of the faults you point out to others when arguing. Only now you've adressed the point, although not satisfactorily. You misquoted me. You made a straw man. And you don't represent well my opinion. I clearly said he had merit. It's just not good enough. If you are the most powerful man in the world be prepared to be held to the highest standards.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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