The mechanism of gandhabba

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stuka
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by stuka »

Jechbi wrote:Hi Stuka,
stuka wrote:There is the union of mother and father, the mother is in season, meaning that she is ovulating. A viable egg drops from the ovary, is fertilized, and attaches to the uterine wall. Basic mammalian reproduction, folks.
So are you saying that "gandhabba" is just another word for "viable egg"?

I am saying that 2500 years ago they didn't have microscopes, scientific methods, modern medicine and research, etc., to be able to observe the process' and this gandhabba business represents the contemporary "best guess", or what we now call the "conventional wisdom", based upon the prevailing assumptions of the time. It is the same as those who attributed eclipses of the sun and moon to "God's wrath" before we as a species figured out that the world wasn't really flat and at the center of the universe.
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stuka
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by stuka »

Individual wrote:
Jechbi wrote:So are you saying that "gandhabba" is just another word for "viable egg"?
I hope not.

In AN 4.36, gandabbhas are said to be "in the sky". Neither sperm nor ovum are floating around in the air. In DN 20, of the Four Heavenly Kings, Dhatarattha, King of the East, is identified as "Chief of the Gandhabbas". This means king of the sperm\ovum? In DN 32, an army of various beings, including Gandabbas, surounded and protected the Buddha, and also saluted him. How was the Buddha surrounded by sperm\ovum, protected by it, and saluted by it? How did sperm\ovum sit down, speak to him, or announce their name and lineage? :lol:

Your response is based upon a Fallacy of Many Questions.
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Jechbi
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

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stuka wrote:
Jechbi wrote:Hi Stuka,
stuka wrote:There is the union of mother and father, the mother is in season, meaning that she is ovulating. A viable egg drops from the ovary, is fertilized, and attaches to the uterine wall. Basic mammalian reproduction, folks.
So are you saying that "gandhabba" is just another word for "viable egg"?
I am saying that 2500 years ago they didn't have microscopes, scientific methods, modern medicine and research, etc., to be able to observe the process' and this gandhabba business represents the contemporary "best guess", or what we now call the "conventional wisdom", based upon the prevailing assumptions of the time. It is the same as those who attributed eclipses of the sun and moon to "God's wrath" before we as a species figured out that the world wasn't really flat and at the center of the universe.
So gandhabba is just superstition then?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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retrofuturist
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:So gandhabba is just superstition then?
My reading of what stuka says is that it's intended to represent the "remaining ingredient". Whether they believed they knew precisely what that "remaining ingredient" was and how it functioned is a different question.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Jechbi
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Jechbi »

Sorry to be dense, but I'm not following. What is the "remaining ingredient"? I'm not familiar with that term, and I haven't seen it in this discussion until now, unless I missed it. Thanks.
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stuka
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

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Jechbi wrote:
stuka wrote:
stuka wrote:There is the union of mother and father, the mother is in season, meaning that she is ovulating. A viable egg drops from the ovary, is fertilized, and attaches to the uterine wall. Basic mammalian reproduction, folks.

....



So gandhabba is just superstition then?
Did I say "just superstition"?
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Jechbi
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Stuka,
stuka wrote:Did I say "just superstition"?
No, you didn't. But that's how I understood your meaning when I first read your post, so I'm trying to clarify. If I misunderstood, please have patience with me. Thanks.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,

The word 'gandhabba' refers to whatever else is required beyond the other two conditions of the woman being fertile, and the coming together of the woman and man. As has been pointed out previously, there's not a lot known about precisely what the term is referring to.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:The word 'gandhabba' refers to whatever else is required beyond the other two conditions of the woman being fertile, and the coming together of the woman and man.
Ok, thanks, that's actually a somewhat more precise definition than I recall seeing earlier in this particular discussion. That means "gandhabba" is basically a fill-in-the-blank placeholder term refering to some not-described condition about which we can only speculate (or set aside as unfit for speculation). Or am I way off base here? I guess I was hoping there was something more with which to fill in the blank, but if not, that's cool.
retrofuturist wrote:As has been pointed out previously, there's not a lot known about precisely what the term is referring to.
Yes, I remember Element said something along those lines early on:
Element wrote:From my limited knowledge, I have gained the impression the gandhabba is a vague word found in a few places which scholars are not in agreement about.
But I had the impression that there may be other insights regarding gandhabba with which Element was not personally familiar. Maybe not.

Thanks,
:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:The word 'gandhabba' refers to whatever else is required beyond the other two conditions of the woman being fertile, and the coming together of the woman and man.
Ok, thanks, that's actually a somewhat more precise definition than I recall seeing earlier in this particular discussion. That means "gandhabba" is basically a fill-in-the-blank placeholder term refering to some not-described condition about which we can only speculate (or set aside as unfit for speculation). Or am I way off base here? I guess I was hoping there was something more with which to fill in the blank, but if not, that's cool.
That seemed to be the thrust of Stuka's earlier post, as I read it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:That means "gandhabba" is basically a fill-in-the-blank placeholder term refering to some not-described condition about which we can only speculate (or set aside as unfit for speculation). Or am I way off base here? I guess I was hoping there was something more with which to fill in the blank, but if not, that's cool.
In conventional truth a gandhabba is a being who has just passed away with ignorance and craving unextinguished, and who is propelled by kamma to the ovum as it's being fertilized. In ultimate/abhidhammic truth the gandhabba is the relinking consciousness that constitutes a new citta-santati in the citta-santāna, and which is conditioned by the death consciousnes of the previous citta-santati.

Citta-santāna = mental continuum stretching back into an unlimited past and forward into an unlimited future unless stopped by Nibbāna.

Citta-santati = the mental continuum of a single life-time.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Jechbi
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Jechbi »

Thank you, Bhante, for this clear elucidation. :namaste:

This seems to align with the way in which Bikkhu Bodhi uses the term "gandhabba" as referenced in the OP, namely, as relinking consciousness. And I believe you get right to the heart of the matter by highlighting both the conventional use of the term as well as the ultimate use. It's so easy (for me any way) to blend the two together and arrive at an imprecise understanding.

With regard to the conventional truth, if gandhabba is a being, then does that constitute an intermediate state? And would that introduce the notion of a mechanism to help arrive at a conventional understanding of how gandhabba can accomplish contact with the embryo from vast distances away? Or would this be going down the road of speculation?

Metta
:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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stuka
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

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Dhammanando wrote: In ultimate/abhidhammic truth
Good thing you qualified that as "abhidhammic", Bhante. Alayavinnana was Asangha's eisegeisis, in something like 4 BCE, according to Walpola Rahula, no...?
In the Yogacara (Vijnanavada) School of Buddhism, alayavijnana is one of the most important doctrines developed by Asanga (fourth century A.C.).

http://mail.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha195.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha did not teach patisandhivinnana either, did he...?
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stuka
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

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The Buddha, Maha Tanhasankaya Sutta, MN 38, wrote:"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

...

In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account of eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.

"Bhikkhus, do you see, This has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir". "Do you see it arises supported by That?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, Do you see if the support ceases, the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, when you are not sure whether something has arisen do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "When you are not sure why something has arisen, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when you are not sure that with ceasing of a certain support, that the arisen too would cease, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something arises with a support?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you sees with right wisdom that with the cessation of its supports, the arisen also ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, This has arisen - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, This has arisen with That as support - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when that support ceases, the arising too ceases - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, as it really is, with right wisdom, this is arising?." "Yes,venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that this arises supported?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that when the support ceases the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir."
[Edited out excessively large font sizes. For the second time, Stuka, please refrain from this. It is discourteous to readers. There is nobody here who's so stupid that he'll miss your point if you don't use the font size of a nursery school reading primer. – Dhammanando]
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Dhammanando
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Re: The mechanism of gandhabba

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Jechbi,
Jechbi wrote:With regard to the conventional truth, if gandhabba is a being, then does that constitute an intermediate state?

No. In non-Theravadin schools that teach an intermediate state, the gandhabba will be conceived as a subtle being — a sort of spook that waits about or floats about or creeps about for days or weeks, remaining in a limbo until it can meet with an opportunity to be reborn (e.g., an encounter with a copulating couple). But the Theravada rejected the idea of an intermediate state at the Council of Patali. In Theravadin accounts of rebirth, no matter whether we describe the gandhabba according to conventional or ultimate truth, either way we're talking about something that exists for only a brief moment.
And would that introduce the notion of a mechanism to help arrive at a conventional understanding of how gandhabba can accomplish contact with the embryo from vast distances away?
The distance between the deceased being and the reborn one is simply not viewed as something that needs accounting for. Both the death consciousness and the relinking one are wholly immaterial and have wholly immaterial causes and so there's nothing travelling through space from one place to another. From the Milindapañha:
  • The King said: “Revered Nāgasena, if one person died here and was reborn in the Brahma-world, and if another person died here and was reborn in Kashmir, which of them would be the shorter, which the longer, in getting reborn?”
    “They would be equal, sire.”
    “Make a simile.”
    Where is the town, sire, where you were born?”
    “There is a village called Kalasi, revered sir. I was born there.”
    “How far, sire, is the village of Kalasi from here?”
    “The distance is two hundred leagues, revered sir.”
    “How far is Kashmir from here, sire?”
    “Twelve leagues, revered sir.”
    “Please now, sire, think of the village of Kalasi.”
    “I have thought of it, revered sir.”
    “Now sire, please think of Kashmir.”
    “I have thought of it, revered sir.”
    “Now, which thought was the shorter, sire, which the longer?”
    “They were equal, revered sir.”
    “Even so, sire, he who has died here and uprisen in the Brahma-world and he who has died here and uprisen in Kashmir arise exactly simultaneously.”
Or would this be going down the road of speculation?
I would say that conventional speech is not really adequate for describing the mechanism of rebirth, beyond the bare suttaic account of mum, dad and gandhabba. For more detail than that we need to frame the question and answer in abhidhammic terms. So rather than, "How did the late Jones of Shropshire end up as a guppy in a Glasgow aquarium?" the question would be "What conditions were required for the death consciousness that terminated the former santati to generate the relinking consciousness and the first material octad of the new santati?"

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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