The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rohana
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:43 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by rohana » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:39 am

Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:
  • How is the Sujin position different from the position taken by the Brahmin Unnabha:
    • "Brahman, the holy life is lived under the Blessed One with the aim of abandoning desire."

      "Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

      "Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

      "What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

      "Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

      "If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."
  • When the Buddha talked about a 'gradual training' was he excluding any formal practice?
  • What about formal practice for the purpose of developing jhāna, after going to 'the foot of a tree or an empty dwelling'?
  • Similar to any idea of 'I-will-practice-meditation', how does one tackle any lōbha that can exist as 'I will follow Sujin's advice to gain awakening at some future point' or 'I will read Abhidhamma' - because even when we read a dhamma book, a subtle desire for awakening can be just as present as when we do any formal meditation. (Basically, how does even listening to a dhamma talk or reading a dhamma book not be part of a 'formal practice'?)
My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:28 am

rohana wrote:Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:


My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.
Without right view any "cultivation of insight into anicca dukkha and anatta" is likely to be self delusion.

retro said earlier in this thread:
What is needed to make those factors you mention "Right" however, is a foundation in Right View. If someone does certain exercises without Right View as the foundation, the exercise itself will not be Right, and no amount of effort or sincere dedication to that activity will make it otherwise. If someone does an exercise (whether it be selecting a sandwich, sacrificing goats, or sitting down with closed eyes) in the absence of Right View (and thereby does not understand the Dhammic causality associated with the exercise and are doing it simply out of faith that understanding will arise simply as a consequence of doing the activity) then that exercise could well be described as a ritual, to which one could become attached.

Retro. :)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:42 am

robertk wrote:
rohana wrote:Not having read the entire thread, may be someone can summarize the answers to the following questions from Sujin-approach perspective? I'm guess some of these have already been addressed:


My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.
Without right view any "cultivation of insight into anicca dukkha and anatta" is likely to be self delusion.
The problem with that is that "Right View," until ariya status attained, is always a work in progress, and it is far more than having an intellectual/conceptual "right view," which if taken alone, is far more likely to lead one down the garden-path of assuming more for one's self than is warranted. Right View is more than just careful study of texts; it is what arises from with putting the Buddha's teaching into practice, actively doing: bhavana/meditation practice, sila, and the rest of the 8 Fold Path.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:01 am

rohana wrote:
  • When the Buddha talked about a 'gradual training' was he excluding any formal practice?
  • What about formal practice for the purpose of developing jhāna, after going to 'the foot of a tree or an empty dwelling'?
  • Similar to any idea of 'I-will-practice-meditation', how does one tackle any lōbha that can exist as 'I will follow Sujin's advice to gain awakening at some future point' or 'I will read Abhidhamma' - because even when we read a dhamma book, a subtle desire for awakening can be just as present as when we do any formal meditation. (Basically, how does even listening to a dhamma talk or reading a dhamma book not be part of a 'formal practice'?)
My understanding is that the cultivation of insight into aniccā, dukkha and anattā leads to dispassion. Once dispassion sets in, one let's go, making the breakthrough to stream entry(so the formal practice is a means to an end). However, usually the moment of release happens at an unexpected moment, outside of formal practice, since during the formal practice there can be too much clinging to the idea of the goal. So I think there's certainly a point here to be made, but it seems to me like Khun Sujin has taken this basic idea and run it into an extreme.
No answer to these questions and statement.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Virgo
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Virgo » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:As we have seen graphically illustrated above, Sujin really does not understand either theoretically or practically meditation practice. Sad that she feels this need to disparage meditation practice in this strawman manner.
Why not keep it about dhammas, not about people?

Kevin
The Hunger Site

________________

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As we have seen graphically illustrated above, Sujin really does not understand either theoretically or practically meditation practice. Sad that she feels this need to disparage meditation practice in this strawman manner.
Why not keep it about dhammas, not about people?

Kevin
You tell us why Sujin, in describing her particular methodology, feels she needs to disparage meditation practice, which she clearly does not understand? This is graphically evident in the above linked Q&A with her about metta practice that you gave us above.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p229904

http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/2 ... m-b-01.mp3

The disparagement of meditation practice, as we see in robertk's msgs above, comes directly from her, and this disparagement in her teachings seems to have some degree of centrality to her teachings. She is the one being quoted here as the authority on all things Dhamma. My comments about her are in terms of her teachings and the disparagement, her lack of understanding, of meditation practice, which is reflected in what her followers are saying in this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:26 pm

in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by ancientbuddhism » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:50 pm

robertk wrote:in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

So says Buddhaghosa.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by kirk5a » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:54 am

While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is
generated,13 that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes
beginning with kamma.

footnote 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually
comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets
stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga.
Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:30 am

kirk5a wrote:
While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is
generated,13 that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes
beginning with kamma.

footnote 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually
comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets
stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga.
Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
Robert has a tendency not to be very accurate with his quotation and citations, but more importantly are the immediate and broader contexts. The VM is a text that does not supports the Sujinist point of view that Robert is championing here, a point that has already been established in this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:52 am

13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:57 am

robertk wrote:13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .
What you wrote:
in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As it stands, it is unclear, thus we get this from someone who is no neophyte:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
robertk wrote:in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx
13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).

So says Buddhaghosa.
Simply, you could far more clearly have said: "in a footnote citing the commentary in the section on the development of vipassana in Vism.xx . . . ." Also, as has been shown in this thread you do have a tendency to take stuff out of context.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by ancientbuddhism » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:35 am

kirk5a wrote: So says the commentary to the Visuddhimagga. Page 639 of the PDF version by Bhikkhu Nanamoli.
OK, so says Dhammapala. But thank you for this. I looked at the reference to 'vism xx' and neglected to look more carefully at the cite reference below it.
robertk wrote:13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhþ 790).
As the quote included the actual full reference to the tika (Vism-mhp 790) it is rather unfair to conclude that this is an inaccurate citation .
I suppose what is puzzling is the question of what this snippet of commentary informs the discussion. If I may, the expected standard would be to first give the text the fn. points to (Vism. XX, 22):
  • [COMPREHENSION OF THE MATERIAL]
    22. While comprehending materiality he should see how materiality is generated,[13] that is to say, how this materiality is generated by the four causes beginning with kamma. Herein, when materiality is being generated in any being, it is first generated from kamma. For at the actual moment of rebirthlinking of a child in the womb, first thirty instances of materiality are generated in the triple continuity, in other words, the decads of physical [heart-]basis, body, and sex. And those are generated at the actual instant of the rebirth-linking consciousness’s arising. And as at the instant of its arising, so too at the instant of its presence and at the instant of its dissolution.
Then the fn. cited as you had given:
  • 13. “First it has to be seen by inference according to the texts. Afterwards it gradually comes to be seen by personal experience when the knowledge of development gets stronger” (Vism-mhṭ 790).
But I cannot, at a glance of the previous page of this thread, see what this post is aimed at in the context of a discussion which ended two months prior to it. Even your underlined emphasis does not make this clearer. I can only assume that it is the syntax of this fn. itself that fits some other point you are making?
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:14 pm

did you read the first page of the thread where I cite Bhikkhu Bodhi:

I repeat it below.
Bhikkhu Bodhi's In the Buddha's Words page 302:




Contemporary Buddhist literature commonly conveys two ideas about pañña that have become almost axioms in the popular understanding of Buddhism, The first is that pañña is exclusively nonconceptual and nondiscursive, a type of cognition that defies all the laws of logical thought; the second, that pañña arises spontaneously, through an act of pure intuition as sudden and instantaneous as a brilliant flash of lightning. These two ideas about pañña are closely connected. If pañña defies all the laws of thought, it cannot be approached by any type of conceptual activity but can arise only when the rational, discriminative, conceptual activity of the mind has been stultified. And this stopping of conceptualization, somewhat like the demolition of a building, must be a rapid one, an undermining of thought not previously prepared for by any gradual maturation of understanding. Thus, in the popular understanding of Buddhism, pañña defies rationality and easily slides off into "crazy wisdom," an incomprehensible, mindboggling way of relating to the world that dances at the thin edge between super-rationality and madness.

Such ideas about pañña receive no support at all from the teachings of the Nikayas, which, are consistently sane, lucid, and sober, To take the two points in reverse order: First, far from arising spontaneously, pañña in the Nikayas is emphatically conditioned, arisen from an underlying matrix of causes and conditions. And second, pañña is not bare intuition, but a careful, discriminative understanding that at certain stages involves precise conceptual operations. Pañña is directed to specific domains of understanding. These domains, known in the Pali commentaries as "the soil of wisdom" (paññabhumi), must be thoroughIy investigated and mastered through conceptual understanding before direct, nonconceptual insight can effectively accomplish its work. To master them requires analysis, discrimination, and discernment. One must be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts certain basic patterns fundamental to all experience and use these patterns as templates for close contemplation of one's own experience

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:32 pm

robertk wrote:" Pañña is directed to specific domains of understanding. These domains, known in the Pali commentaries as "the soil of wisdom" (paññabhumi), must be thoroughIy investigated and mastered through conceptual understanding before direct, nonconceptual insight can effectively accomplish its work. To master them requires analysis, discrimination, and discernment. One must be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts certain basic patterns fundamental to all experience and use these patterns as templates for close contemplation of one's own experience
This is interesting. It is the sort of position the Gelugpas take.

This a yes and no situation. Conceptual thinking plays an important role in the setting up of the practice and in talking about the fruits of the practice, but it is not the practice of bhavana. Paying attention to the nama/rupa process is where it all unfolds. There is a world of difference between "knowing" anicca conceptually and in seeing the rise and fall of the nama/rupa process in terms of "the seen in the seen, only the heard in the heard, only the sensed in the sensed, only the cognized in the cognized" (Ud 10).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bridif1, Buddho93, Majestic-12 [Bot], retrofuturist, WindDancer and 135 guests