Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...
I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.
I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.
/
Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Hi Dave,
I've been reading some of it (there is too much of it for me to really digest all of it). Particularly your contributions, and replies to your contributions.
As you say, it's all over the place on all sorts of issues, most of which seem to have little to do with the OP.
Mike
I've been reading some of it (there is too much of it for me to really digest all of it). Particularly your contributions, and replies to your contributions.
As you say, it's all over the place on all sorts of issues, most of which seem to have little to do with the OP.
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
What thread are you referencing here?daverupa wrote:Has anyone else been following the other thread which spawned this one? It's been all over the map, yet gone nearly nowhere...
I had expected at least some Madhyamika stuff, maybe prompting some discussion of how Nagarjuna & various Mahayana groups in Central India in general were reacting to Sarvastivada-Sautrantika bickering over time, while Sri Lanka remained largely aloof from these goings-on until Buddhaghosa brought the Theravada up to speed on continental developments, dovetailing into possible avenues of discussion vis-a-vis prajnaparamita and the various abhidhammas, if nothing else... anyway, no such luck.
I also lament the wild, wild west of Mahayana texts in terms of the discussions about consciousness in that thread.
/
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Yes, over on Dharma Wheel:imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040
It is now up to 33 pages, though most of that does not directly address the topic. Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
Mike
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates. I'm not sure why self-reflexivity has even come up as a hinge issue there... the early Buddhist texts seem to have been mostly, though perhaps politely, ignored.mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feattiltbillings wrote:Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
But probably, since you are who you are.
Kim
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
- tiltbillings
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
From Tibetan tenet system perspective, which is hardly an accurate portrayal of Indian Yogachara. It all makes me very glad not to be a Mahayanist.daverupa wrote:As far as I can tell, the thread is mostly rehashing Madhyamika-Yogacara debates.mikenz66 wrote:Much of the discussion has been about technicalities of various Mahayana interpretations of not-self and so on...
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Why, thanks for the rather dim compliment.Kim OHara wrote:Not necessarily. Many of our politicians don't manage such a feattiltbillings wrote:Thanks. Obviously, had I looked where I should obviously have looked I would seen the obvious.imagemarie wrote:"Early Buddhism and Mahayana", I think tilt.
But probably, since you are who you are.
Kim
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
I'm pretty confused by that as well. As far as I can tell, it's being used by certain Mahayana folk to describe a quality of vinnana, such that not only does vinnana take an object, but vinnana also cognizes the presence of vinnana.chownah wrote:daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
I'm pretty sure this is motivated by further considerations, re: Buddha-Nature, but it's not a Nikaya premise - nothing hangs on it, but the orange 'vinnana' in the previous paragraph is probably more accurately termed 'citta' - and as far as I can tell it's nowhere in the early prajnaparamita, so the thread over there is basically a bust.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
daverupa,
Seems like consciousness recognizing its own presence is a way of describing sentience......but I don't know.....
chownah
Seems like consciousness recognizing its own presence is a way of describing sentience......but I don't know.....
chownah
Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Yeah, that sounds about right...chownah wrote:daverupa,
Seems like consciousness recognizing its own presence is a way of describing sentience......but I don't know.....
chownah
I mean, vinnana can receive any number of definitions which aren't really seperable from sanna and vedana, so talking about vinnana in-and-of-itself requires talking about a certain arupa attainment, else speculation and reasoned argumentation, which turns out one of two ways.
(A quote which, by the way, makes that arupa attainment seem quite odd...)SN 22.53 wrote:Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.
Anyway, to then tie a slew of soteriological claims to that specific exploration deviates from the Buddha's approach and furthermore is in danger of running afoul of warnings against ossifying meditational/contemplative experiences per the Brahmajala Sutta.
Even if consciousness could be aware of itself in a pristine state of integrated wholeness with the cosmos... even that would be with contact as condition...
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Commitment to a narrative of liberation
Hi Dave,daverupa wrote:I'm pretty confused by that as well. As far as I can tell, it's being used by certain Mahayana folk to describe a quality of vinnana, such that not only does vinnana take an object, but vinnana also cognizes the presence of vinnana.chownah wrote:daverupa,
What is self reflexivity?
chownah
You don't think we can be aware of our consciousness?
Also, I don't think that vinnana actually "takes" an object... it only arises when there is a contact in between a sense and its object.
For example: mind + object (or say, an object called "consciousness," in the namarupa scheme of things) = consciousness of the mind that is in contact with the "consciousness."
Does that deviate from what the Buddha taught?