Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

A_Martin wrote:If body contemplation does not bring up aversion and hateful feelings, then you are doing something wrong!
Āvuso, if any meditation brings up aversion and hate, then it brings up unwholesome mental states. The purpose of insight is to remove unwholesome states and to bring up wholesome states.

Its probably just confusion regarding the meaning of language, but be careful about forceful suppression through aversion. You may become a bitter and twisted misogynist, or just fall back to the lay life. With insight, one can see both subha and asubha as one wishes, and remain equanimous towards both.

Weariness with sensual pleasures and disgust (nibbidā) is not aversion. It is close to dispassion, liberation (from lust and attachment), and nibbāna.
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appicchato
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by appicchato »

Jhana4 wrote:I don't share the....belief that aversion of the body needs to be taught...
Ditto...
PeterB
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by PeterB »

Does it follow Bhante that you think it should not be taught ?
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Jhana4 »

kirk5a wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:I don't find it inspiring to think that the best I can hope for is to work hard on detaching myself from life for the reward of being completely dead when I die.
That doesn't sound very inspiring to me either, put like that. But maybe that's a function of that interpretation of the Dhamma. I look at that as the "There is no life in the void, only death" interpretation. But is that the right way to look at the Dhamma?
Kirk5a, your point comes back to the heart of my concern.

No death, now that I find inspiring.
I would too, if I thought the Pali Canon said that. It seems to me that teachers, writers and the Sangha at large flesh things out in a much more sunny way. However, I don't see how the sunnier views of the Sangha connect to the suttas. Looking at the suttas, my understanding is that nibbana can't be described, but it seems like an end to what the person is to the extent that they are gone.

Is there something directly from the suttas that would say I am flat out wrong about that?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Jhana4 »

TMingyur wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:
I haven't missed a day of meditation in over 5 years ( I keep a log ). I live an sXe lifestyle and keep most of the 5 precepts most of the time by virtue of my natural temperaments. My life isn't about making the most money I possibly can and I try to live in a respectful, cooperative manner with those around me. I also learned young that a preoccupation with immediate gratification or material gain beyond a certain point leads to some not so nice results.
Honestly ... why not just leaving it at that?
Curiosity.

There are people who claim they are inspired by the Pali Canon. I feel enriched by my readings of the Pali Canon, but not inspired. I wonder why I am not inspired but other people are.

Did I miss something they didn't ?
Do they simply disregard the things in the Pali Canon that do not inspire me?
Have they not come across the things I have or failed to understand them?

If it is the first situation I would certainly like to know how they find the Pali Canon inspiring and if I could find it inspiring being who I am.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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kirk5a
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by kirk5a »

Jhana4 wrote:
kirk5a wrote:No death, now that I find inspiring.
I would too, if I thought the Pali Canon said that. It seems to me that teachers, writers and the Sangha at large flesh things out in a much more sunny way. However, I don't see how the sunnier views of the Sangha connect to the suttas. Looking at the suttas, my understanding is that nibbana can't be described, but it seems like an end to what the person is to the extent that they are gone.

Is there something directly from the suttas that would say I am flat out wrong about that?
Ok lets see... you have the understanding "it seems like an end to what the person is to the extent that they are gone"

One thing to notice is that is an idea, an interpretation that you have, and maybe it's not really the best representation of how things are.

That said - in the suttas, how about this?

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Jhana4
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Jhana4 »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: I can vouch for the body contemplations, because in the case of my complicated situation in the other thread, so far this has helped me deal with my feelings of attraction and longing for a man. It honestly has helped me a lot when I think I have no way to escape my feelings of suffering. I thought before regardless I would only be able to get hurt with my situation, but in this case the suttas have inspired a sense of freedom from that situation which rather than being between a rock and a hard place is opening a third option. So, yes, the Dhamma is inspiring to me. Inspiring a sense of freedom.
Hi Wizzard. I find your comment the hardest to relate to my own experience so I find it the hardest to understand and as a result I find your comment to be the most interesting.

My best attempt at reconciling my experiences with yours is remembering that I have been hurt deeply by my infatuations ( I guess that is why they call it having a *CRUSH* ) and that after my last one in my 20s I swore off the kind of thinking that allowed infatuations to happen. That pretty much amounted to repeatedly asking myself if I really knew the person yet or if I was falling for an idealized daydream I was making myself.

I never used the contemplation of the body. By that I mean the exercises prescribed to some monks in the suttas which some members kindly quoted here, which I see as cultivating an aversion. My problem with that is rooted in what I see as the anti-sex, self hating and anti-life messages of the puritan influenced aspects of American culture. It is also my belief that the human mind has more options for dealing with clinging than "sour graping" a clinged to object and I see such techniques as demeaning, in most ( not all) situations given what we as people are capable of.

Still, you wrote that it worked for you and that you are happy with the results. That is the bottom line. I don't believe in one size fits all solutions for all people.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Jhana4 »

TMingyur wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:I don't find it inspiring to think that the best I can hope for is to work hard on detaching myself from life for the reward of being completely dead when I die.
That doesn't sound very inspiring to me either, put like that. But maybe that's a function of that interpretation of the Dhamma. I look at that as the "There is no life in the void, only death" interpretation. But is that the right way to look at the Dhamma?
No. It is just attachment to the thought "this life" ... "I" ... "mine"

Guess the reason is an overly "intellectual" approach ... a strong inclination toward thinking not "relaxed" by "meditation" practice.
I put the portion of your comment I found to be the most interesting in bold face.

Is it an "overly intellectual approach" to simply read the suttas? I spend 7 - 10 hours a week in meditation ( I keep a log ). I go to an informal sutta study group at my temple about twice a month, so I end up spending about 1 - 2 hours week on suttas. This thread was inspired by simply reading one of the suttas on dependent origination in the last class and feeling like it wasn't inspiring.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Jhana4 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
A_Martin wrote:If body contemplation does not bring up aversion and hateful feelings, then you are doing something wrong!
Āvuso, if any meditation brings up aversion and hate, then it brings up unwholesome mental states. The purpose of insight is to remove unwholesome states and to bring up wholesome states.
That is much closer to where I am coming from than I have so far been able to articulate.
Its probably just confusion regarding the meaning of language,
I've wondered about this point before. I've found the Sangha, various authors, some monks and meditation to be very life affirming and inspiring. What I have failed to see is how they get all of that from the Pali Canon. One of my suppositions is that part of the Dhamma hasn't translated well into the words of the Pali Canon, but has been passed down person to person. Part of me would like to see such a connection between that and the words of the Pali Canon.
Weariness with sensual pleasures and disgust (nibbidā) is not aversion. It is close to dispassion, liberation (from lust and attachment), and nibbāna.
It is probably just my subjective impression of particular words but I find the word "disgust" to be too strong to be grouped with "dispassion". I see the use "disgust" to be another example of your point about the confusion of languages and translations.

No disrespect.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
A_Martin
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by A_Martin »

to Jhana4
you don't have to be a buddhist, you do not have to believe (all) the buddhist texts and you do not have to do body contemplation. But I am afraid, if you don't wont to be reborn again, then the only way to anagami is the contemplation of the body. So far I encountered two possibilities one if you are really skilled in all the jhanas, especially the arupa jhanas, then contemplation of the body as elements seems to be a way (taught by Lungphu Thete), the others go the hard way of loathsomeness of the body. (the first way I don't know) and I think you are right, the walkable path has been passed down from master to student.
to Bhikkhu Pesala
Dear Bhante, if you think suppression of aversion is a way how to deal with emotions, then I do understand your point, but I meant learn to deal with them in a skillful way, e.g. find the root of the problem and remove it.
Weariness of sensual pleasures ... We are born because of greed and hate, so if we do not find a skillful way how to remove them from the citta, then there is no hope. I can be weary of anger and lust (or even my body) for the rest of my life, this does not - sadly to say - remove it. But maybe, you are following the line of thought of Nanachat monks that teaches that from the point of nibbana, one sees anger and lust arising but one decides not to follow it. But from my understanding of the Teaching of the Lord Buddha and a very clear description of Than Acharn Maha Bua. Lust and Anger does not even arise any more in an Anagami! And there are no more kilesas in the heart of the Arahant - they have been completely destroyed. The Lord Buddha teaches the builder of the house has been destroyed, he does not teach that he has been recognized.

:smile: For me I sit back and enjoy and wish with all my heart and give you all my metta, that your views and opinions are going to lead you to the end of suffering, if you aspire so :smile:

The reason for me to engage was to help and indirectly or directly I could be of help to wizard in the forest and this makes me happy. I think in another thread, I could help also starter, so that makes me even more happier. May those who I displeased forgive me. Bye Bye
ricebowl
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by ricebowl »

Jhana4 wrote:Sometimes a kind of standard, man on the street existentialist view of life seems more cheerfful in comparison. You live, you have some pleasures, you learn to deal with some inevitable pain the best you can and you die.

At least you aren't dealing with a mental map of learning to have a zeal for stamping out the pleasures in life.

Am I missing something appealing in the Buddhist cosmology to look forward to?
Thig 5.4
PTS: Thig 82-86
Nanda: Nanda's Vision
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1994

"Sick, putrid, unclean:
look, Nanda, at this physical heap.
Through contemplation of the foul,
develop your mind,
make it one, well-centered.

As this [your body], so that.
As that, so this.
It gives off a foul stench,
the delight of fools."

Considering it thus,
untiring, both day & night,
I, with my own discernment
dissecting it,
saw.

And as I, heedful,
examined it aptly,
this body — as it actually is —
was seen inside & out.

Then was I disenchanted with the body
& dispassionate within:
Heedful, detached,
calmed was I.

Unbound.

"Nanda: Nanda's Vision" (Thig 5.4), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 8 August 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html . Retrieved on 20 September 2013.
beeblebrox
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by beeblebrox »

I think that's a bit funny. What is the body made of? It's only made of things that are already found on the earth...

It's only certain configurations of these that some people would claim are disgusting, and that some people would claim are beautiful. It's lame, actually... where's the sense in that?

I don't think the Dhamma is really inspiring in itself, technically. It's only what people make of it... I think it's what they do with it that makes it amazing, or not so amazing. It could go either way... or not at all.

How will you be when you encounter something (or become stuck with it) and many people say that it's uninspiring, or disgusting?

:anjali:
Samma
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by Samma »

Inspiring as in "to fill with an animating, quickening, or exalting influence"? Well only rarely, might read something and be struck with the importance of it, feel energized, and want to practice. Rather than inspiration being so important, consider the two terms bellow.

"The power of this aspiration depends on two emotions, called in Pali samvega and pasada. Very few of us have heard of them, but they're the emotions most basic to the Buddhist tradition."
samvega - "oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and alienation that come with realizing the futility and meaninglessness of life as it's normally lived"
pasada -"clarity and serene confidence." It's what keeps samvega from turning into despair." (Thanissaro)

Here is one section I read over and over...maybe it will do something for you?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
befriend
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Re: Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

Post by befriend »

there is what some might call a taste of nibbana right here right now. let go of wanting a pleasure, wanting a pleasant mental state, wanting to be somewhere in the future, and let go of not wanting to be where you are. all thoughts will fall away and you will enjoy a peaceful content abiding.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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