Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:00 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
SN 46:51 wrote:There are things causing doubt; frequently giving unwise attention to them — that is the nourishment for the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and for the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen.
SN 46:55 wrote:When one's mind is possessed by doubt, overpowered by doubt, then one cannot properly see the escape from doubt which has arisen; then one does not properly understand one's own welfare, nor that of another, nor that of both; and also texts memorized a long time ago do not come into one's mind, not to speak of those not memorized.
Metta,
Retro. :)
And that probably explains the starwman approach/misunderstanding you have been taking of what zavk has been saying here as we see your Buddha muscleman msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chownah
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:03 am

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Image
Well, that is just ugly and disrespectful and unfunny.
Context, tiltbillings, context.
chownah

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:05 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Image
Well, that is just ugly and disrespectful and unfunny.
Context, tiltbillings, context.
chownah
It is ugly and disrespectful and unfunny, and the context is based upon a strawman reading of zavk's msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by zavk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:45 am

Hey... no worries man. I appreciate it but I don't wish for the thread to get bogged down on what may or may not be disrespectful to me on my account.

So to allow for the possibility of thinking otherwise, for further questioning in this thread, I suppose what Retro asks below is inter-involved with the question I posed about learning to become aware of traces of hubris/presumptuousness, if they persist, in one's own approach and understanding.

retrofuturist wrote:So how much of this is unease is truly about unwholesome cittas in self or other, and how much of this is about unwholesome mana-influenced perceptions, projection and being weakly blown about by the eight worldly conditions?

At what point can we just be as how the Kalamas were instructed and 'when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'... and cease to be fettered by self-doubt, self-distrust, social rites/rituals, pedantry, and thickets of views? Does being fettered by self-doubt, self-distrust, social rites/rituals, pedantry, and thickets of views pass the Kalama's criteria - are these things good? - do they lead to benefit and happiness?
This response may be regarded as evasive or cowardly, but not a problem for me, since like 'smart' or 'funny' these tend to be labels attributed by others to oneself. But my answer to the above questions vis-a-vis the primary question of the OP is: shall we just let questions (of self) be questions (for self) and not answer them on other's behalf?

So, let's return to dagon's post in the succession of responses and let the thread continue from here, shall we?
dagon wrote:I see Buddhism as a bamboo grove. It started from a single plant deposited there by karma. As the bamboo grows out from the center the center tends to die and what mainly show are dry brittle canes. As the grove expands it meets different environments and can grow differently. In some places it is taller, in some it is thicker, greener …… In some places it meets barriers .. In other parts a child sees a small plant on the edge and is filled with wonder and plants it in their garden at home; or a farmer decides that I will take a plant and start my own grove so that I do not have to wall so far to collect canes. Some times when the center had died the bamboo starts to grow back to its origins. In all the situation the bamboo is the same but also different.

Which is the best bamboo?
With metta,
zavk

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:54 am

zavk wrote:Hey... no worries man. I appreciate it but I don't wish for the thread to get bogged down on what may or may not be disrespectful to me on my account.
I would say that context or no context, the picture is ugly and disrespectful.
shall we just let questions (of self) be questions (for self) and not answer them on other's behalf?
That is how I read your posts from the OP on.
So, let's return to dagon's post in the succession of responses and let the thread continue from here, shall we?
dagon wrote:I see Buddhism as a bamboo grove. It started from a single plant deposited there by karma. As the bamboo grows out from the center the center tends to die and what mainly show are dry brittle canes. As the grove expands it meets different environments and can grow differently. In some places it is taller, in some it is thicker, greener …… In some places it meets barriers .. In other parts a child sees a small plant on the edge and is filled with wonder and plants it in their garden at home; or a farmer decides that I will take a plant and start my own grove so that I do not have to wall so far to collect canes. Some times when the center had died the bamboo starts to grow back to its origins. In all the situation the bamboo is the same but also different.

Which is the best bamboo?
Okay.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:08 am

There can be differences in expression of the Dhamma, but It's the person who misunderstands the Dhamma


The label of "eastern" or "western" is a secondary layer


Someone who is "eastern" can call herself Buddhist, yet not understand one bit of Dhamma compared to a western female who has just encountered it...
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:14 am

clw_uk wrote:There can be differences in expression of the Dhamma, but It's the person who misunderstands the Dhamma


The label of "eastern" or "western" is a secondary layer


Someone who is "eastern" can call herself Buddhist, yet not understand one bit of Dhamma compared to a western female who has just encountered it...
Have you read the OP?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:14 am

It is ugly and disrespectful and unfunny, and the context is based upon a strawman reading of zavk's msg.

"ugly" and "disrespectful" to " you", maybe. I would like to see how you prove it is "ugly" however?

But in context it seems to me to be aimed at lightening the mood :)
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There can be differences in expression of the Dhamma, but It's the person who misunderstands the Dhamma


The label of "eastern" or "western" is a secondary layer


Someone who is "eastern" can call herself Buddhist, yet not understand one bit of Dhamma compared to a western female who has just encountered it...
Have you read the OP?


Of course

There where many layers to the op, to me
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:22 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:There can be differences in expression of the Dhamma, but It's the person who misunderstands the Dhamma


The label of "eastern" or "western" is a secondary layer


Someone who is "eastern" can call herself Buddhist, yet not understand one bit of Dhamma compared to a western female who has just encountered it...
Have you read the OP?


Of course

There where many layers to the op, to me
There are, of course. I do think the OP cuts a little deeper than what you just said, as a rereading of zavk's msg would show.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:28 am

There are, of course. I do think the OP cuts a little deeper than what you just said, as a rereading of zavk's msg would show.
I agree, but I felt that worries about western cultural imperialism do not matter in terms of Dhamma. The O.P. seemed more do with attachment to nation and culture.


So the O.P. seems to express worry at a perceived attack on a culture, or West V East, rather than about who properly understands Dhamma (which my OP related to).
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:33 am

clw_uk wrote:
There are, of course. I do think the OP cuts a little deeper than what you just said, as a rereading of zavk's msg would show.
I agree, but I felt that worries about western cultural imperialism do not matter in terms of Dhamma. The O.P. seemed more do with attachment to nation and culture.


So the O.P. seems to express worry at a perceived attack on a culture, or West V East, rather than about who properly understands Dhamma (which my OP related to).
Never mind.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:40 am

The metaphor of 'white' comes to mind again (if you haven't read my earlier posts, please do so for clarification on my use of the term). 'White' can be taken as a 'pristine', 'untainted', 'pure' colour.... I have attempted to show in this thread and previous threads, how a 'white' approach to Buddhism can generate, even if unwittingly, an effect of 'whitewashing' - symbolic violence that extends beyond Dhamma or Buddhist contexts. But of course one may not agree with a claim of 'whitewashing' if 'whiteness' is regarded as 'pristine', 'untainted', 'pure'.... But I won't harp on this point about the so-called 'colour-blindness' of 'white'.

You seem to equate western with white,

Isn't that a bit of a stereotype?


You could also turn your argument around, China hasn't exactly been exempt from subjugating people, annexing land or enforcing/influencing cultures, ideas and religions.
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:41 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
There are, of course. I do think the OP cuts a little deeper than what you just said, as a rereading of zavk's msg would show.
I agree, but I felt that worries about western cultural imperialism do not matter in terms of Dhamma. The O.P. seemed more do with attachment to nation and culture.


So the O.P. seems to express worry at a perceived attack on a culture, or West V East, rather than about who properly understands Dhamma (which my OP related to).
Never mind.

Indeed :roll:

:zzz:

:focus:
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Re: Book: 'Before we loved the Buddha'

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:54 am

Greetings,
MN 138: Uddesavibhanga Sutta wrote:“And how, friends, is there non-agitation due to non-appropriation? Here a well-taught noble disciple who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not regard material form as self, or self as possessed of material form, or material form as in self, or self as in material form. That material form of his changes and becomes otherwise. With the change and becoming otherwise of that material form, his consciousness is not preoccupied with the change of material form. Agitated mental states born of preoccupation with the change of material form do not arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to non-appropriation he does not become agitated.

“He does not regard feeling as self…He does not regard perception as self…He does not regard formations as self…He does not regard consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That consciousness of his changes and becomes otherwise. With the change and becoming otherwise of that consciousness, his consciousness is not preoccupied with the change of consciousness. Agitated mental states born of preoccupation with the change of consciousness do not arise together and remain obsessing his mind. Because his mind is not obsessed, he is not anxious, distressed, and concerned, and due to non-appropriation he does not become agitated. That is how there is non-agitation due to non-appropriation.
:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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