Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:35 am

Hi SDC,
SDC wrote:...you can't talk about it experientially but it [nibbana] can be discussed intellectually.
Which goes to Right View. I submit: intellectualizing vs. experiencing is a false dichotomy; theory and practice is a dialectic; Right View is an intellect/theory and experience/practice dialectic.
Kindly,
dL

danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:57 am

HI Pesala,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:"Buddha" means so much more than just “awake.”
Perhaps. I was speaking about its etymological root.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The best source on the attributes of a Buddha is the Mahāsihanāda Sutta. On his perfection see especially the Four Kinds of Intrepidity.
Why not MN 123?
Here we have--in these suttas and your use of one of them--a good example of de-humanizing, religous dogma: sutta-thumpin', fire-&-brimstone-ism. I suppose you think I'll wind up in hell if I don't renounce my "heresy"? Must I accept Buddhist Cosmology into my heart as Lord and Savior too?
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by danieLion » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:01 am

Hi hermitwin,
hermitwin wrote:I dont think Buddhism can be improved upon.
If other Buddhists believed this we'd have no Abhidhamma, commentarial tradition, Visuddhimagga, etc.... We certainly wouldn't have Dhammawheel. We'd have doctrinal solidarity.
hermitwin wrote:as a manual for nibbana
What do you think is a manual?
Kindly,
dL

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:29 pm

danieLion wrote:HI Pesala,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:"Buddha" means so much more than just “awake.”
Perhaps. I was speaking about its etymological root.
You were side-stepping the point made by hermit. You say that the Buddha was not perfect. The Buddha said that he was. So are you saying that the Buddha was a liar? Or, are you deluded about the real qualities possessed by one who deserves the epithet of "Buddha?"
danieLion wrote:I suppose you think I'll wind up in hell if I don't renounce my "heresy"?
What I think is of no consequence for you — it depends on what you think, say, and do that will decide whether or not you wind up in hell.

My duty is just to teach what the Buddha taught, as far as I understand it, according to reliable sources.

If you reflect on your own views, and compare them to those of Sunakkhatta as described in the Sutta, then you can decide on your likely destiny after death.

Only the Buddha, or one like him, could read a person's mind, understand their latent tendencies, and reliably predict their future destiny.
Mahāsihanāda Sutta wrote:35. "Sariputta, there are these five destinations. What are the five? Hell, the animal realm, the realm of ghosts, human beings and gods.[15]

36. (1) "I understand hell, and the path and way leading to hell. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.
BTW, your signature is offensive and inappropriate for a Buddhist forum.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:36 pm

Greetings,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:What I think is of no consequence for you — it depends on what you think, say, and do that will decide whether or not you wind up in hell.

My duty is just to teach what the Buddha taught, as far as I understand it, according to reliable sources.
:anjali:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:[danielion's] signature is offensive and inappropriate for a Buddhist forum.
Signature deleted - thanks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

santa100
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by santa100 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:36 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
What I think is of no consequence for you — it depends on what you think, say, and do that will decide whether or not you wind up in hell.

My duty is just to teach what the Buddha taught, as far as I understand it, according to reliable sources
+1
And I think bhante's point clearly addressed danielLion's inquiry:
danielLion wrote:If other Buddhists believed this we'd have no Abhidhamma, commentarial tradition, Visuddhimagga, etc.... We certainly wouldn't have Dhammawheel. We'd have doctrinal solidarity.
The Buddha and the Dhamma are not the problem. We are the problem. And so the purpose of the Abhidhamma, Vm,..and Dhammawheel forum are not there to expose the problem of the Dhamma. They are there as medium for practitioners to share their knowledge and experience to other practitioners. Sure, there're arguments and debates but I hope they're not there just for the sake of argument but to address any error or mistake we still need to improve upon..

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SDC
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by SDC » Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:11 am

danieLion wrote:Hi SDC,
SDC wrote:...you can't talk about it experientially but it [nibbana] can be discussed intellectually.
Which goes to Right View. I submit: intellectualizing vs. experiencing is a false dichotomy; theory and practice is a dialectic; Right View is an intellect/theory and experience/practice dialectic.
Kindly,
dL
Without a doubt. I was just stressing that at the present time I can offer no experiential information regarding nibbana. So any discussion would be intellectual in nature.

hermitwin
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by hermitwin » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:15 am

As Buddha said he only taught a handful of leaves.
The things he knew was like the leaves in the forest.
He taught what was necessary for nibbana.

Imperfect human beings continue to argue
about how to improve Buddha's teachings.
These arguments will never end.

Keep in mind that Buddha said his teachings will not last forever.
The deterioration of the dhamma will continue until
some day when it is completely lost.


danieLion wrote:Hi hermitwin,
hermitwin wrote:I dont think Buddhism can be improved upon.
If other Buddhists believed this we'd have no Abhidhamma, commentarial tradition, Visuddhimagga, etc.... We certainly wouldn't have Dhammawheel. We'd have doctrinal solidarity.
hermitwin wrote:as a manual for nibbana
What do you think is a manual?
Kindly,
dL

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clw_uk
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:47 am

Keep in mind that Buddha said his teachings will not last forever.
The deterioration of the dhamma will continue until
some day when it is completely lost.
Which people have being saying for centuries :zzz:
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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equilibrium
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Re: Improving Buddhism/The Imperfect Buddha

Post by equilibrium » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:03 am

clw_uk wrote:
Keep in mind that Buddha said his teachings will not last forever.
The deterioration of the dhamma will continue until
some day when it is completely lost.
Which people have being saying for centuries :zzz:
Try thousands of years!
"Whatever is of a nature to arise, all that is of a nature to cease": (Nibbana 33 Sermons.)
"For anything that has a beginning must have an end": (The oracle, The Matrix.)

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