Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthi in Jetas Grove, Anathapindika's Park. Then King Pasenadi of Kosala approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, he sat down to one side and said to the Blessed One: "Does master Gotama too claim, 'I have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment'?
"If, great king, one speaking rightly could say of anyone, 'He has awakened to this unsurpassed perfect englightenment,' it is of me that one might rightly say this. For I, great king, have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment."...
- SN. I Kosala Samyutta, 1,1 - 'Young'
On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Nalanda in Pavarika's Mango Grove. Then the Venerable Sariputta approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: 'Venerable Sir, I have such confidence in the Blessed One that I believe there has not been, nor ever will be nor exists at present another ascetic or brahmin more knowledgeable than the Blessed One with respect to enlightenment."
- SN. IV Satipatthanasamyutta, 2, 12 'Nalanda'
"But is it possible, lord, to point out yet another fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?"
"Yes, it is, great king. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.
"There is the case, great king, where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy and rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars and in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure.
"A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'
"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness.
"When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the monastic code, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Consummate in his virtue, he guards the doors of his senses, is possessed of mindfulness and alertness, and is content.
- DN 2: Fruits of the holy life -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
2. "Monks, this Teaching[47] so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork.[48] In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.
43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.
44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.
45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.
46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are mature in Dhamma, mature in faith,[49] are all headed for full Enlightenment.
47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me,[50] are all destined for heaven."
48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el048.html
Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The very nature of this Dhamma is perfection. It has perfection as it's source and perfection is it's goal. This Dhamma is free of patchwork, the doctrine cannot be improved upon, to suggest otherwise is arrogance that will lead to harm and suffering. Unfortunately for some, it is not seen that a starting point of real progress in this Dhamma is the admission of one's own blindness to the true nature of existence. One cannot make progress if one thinks one already knows best... This is the point I was trying to make last night when I got called out for being bombastic by a certain member.
Another portion of an above quoted sutta comes to mind and should be oft remembered by those who engage in debates here, so as not to fall into wrong doing (as I once did a lot in my discussions here):
10.[8] "There are here, O monks, some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and when he is grasping its body or its tail, the snake turns back on him and bites his hand or arm or some other limb of his. And because of that he suffers death or deadly pain. And why? Because of his wrong grasp of the snake.
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some foolish men who study the Teaching; having studied it, they do not wisely examine the purpose of those teachings. To those who do not wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will not yield insight. They study the Teaching only to use it for criticizing or for refuting others in disputation. They do not experience the (true) purpose for which they (ought to) study the Teaching. To them these teachings wrongly grasped, will bring harm and suffering for a long time. And why? Because of their wrong grasp of the teachings.
11. "But there are here, O monks, some noble sons who study the Teaching;[13] and having studied it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.
"Suppose, monks, a man wants a snake, looks for a snake, goes in search of a snake. He then sees a large snake, and with a forked stick he holds it firmly down. Having done so he catches it firmly by the neck. Then although the snake might entwine with (the coils of) its body that man's hand or arm or some other limb of his, still he does not on that account suffer death or deadly pain. And why not? Because of his right grasp of the snake.
"Similarly, O monks, there are here some noble sons who study the Teaching; and having learned it, they examine wisely the purpose of those teachings. To those who wisely examine the purpose, these teachings will yield insight. They do not study the Teaching for the sake of criticizing nor for refuting others in disputation. They experience the purpose for which they study the Teaching; and to them these teachings being rightly grasped, will bring welfare and happiness for a long time. And why? Because of their right grasp of the teachings.
12. "Therefore, O monks, if you know the purpose of what I have said, you should keep it in mind accordingly. But if you do not know the purpose of what I have said, you should question me about it, or else (ask) those monks who are wise.
Ultimately, if one reads these quotes and still doesn't agree, then either one has not got faith in the Buddha, one does not believe him to be telling the truth, or one thinks he is overestimating himself, or one thinks the Suttas are made up by some person or other. But the Buddha has said one can directly realize the Dhamma for oneself and go beyond any doubt in all of the above passages. One does not even need to become an heir in Dhamma, one can by solid reasoning and deduction alone through one's experience, arrive at the conclusion that the Blessed One is truly enlightened, that such a Dhamma as this could only be discovered by a Buddha - A fully enlightened being, and that the Dhamma is well expounded and free of patchwork.
Very likely either this post will be ignored, or people will take offence to it thinking: Who is he to tell us what to do... How arrogant and bombastic he is! But it one person sees the wisdom in the Buddha's teachings and comes to think that Danielion is
misguided in his assumption that the Dhamma is not complete and that the Buddha was not perfect, then this will have achieved it's goal.
The amount of skepticism towards the Buddha's teachings on these forums is what led me to leave this place as well as realizing that it was leading to an unjustifiable amount of passion in me that was hindering my own practice. When one is disparaged for thinking that the Suttas should be taken at their word and that the Buddha was a real human being who was fully enlightened it becomes evident that the environment is one that is hostile to those who have strong faith in the Buddha and those who believe (or know) the Buddha & Dhamma to be perfect. Not to say that I am so arrogant as to think one person leaving here makes an iota of a difference, I do not think highly of my posts or anything... But the point is this: The skeptical humanists and naysayers have won, this environment is not friendly towards those who wish to express a view that the Buddha was a real person who was really enlightened - At least that was my experience.
with metta
Jack