As always that depends on the circumstances.To keep one’s precepts merely out of a prudential wish to avoid unpleasant vipākas no doubt bespeaks of an inferior level of motivation, but don't you think it's better than not being motivated towards sīla at all? And I doubt the unkilled bugs would find it in the least sad.
I'd feed a starving child before a healthy arahant
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Kim OHara wrote:That was more or less my thought, too.m0rl0ck wrote: If an arahant is plump, isnt he doing it wrong?
Kim
Not if its because of genetics
Or because all his alms are lumps of lard ...
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Ok, plumb or not plumb, the key antecedent assumed that it's a real arahant and all 3 people are within viewable distance to one another. With that in mind, you can still go ahead and give your only apple to the arahant knowing that s/he with the selfless virtue of a true arahant will in turn give it to the starving beggar child. You'd still gain a million 'merit points' and at the same time the starving child would still be saved. Problem solved. Sorry if it sounded a bit too...calculating..manas wrote:If I have an apple in my hand, and before me I see a starving beggar child, and a plump arahant on alms round..
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
santa100 wrote:Ok, plumb or not plumb, the key antecedent assumed that it's a real arahant and all 3 people are within viewable distance to one another. With that in mind, you can still go ahead and give your only apple to the arahant knowing that s/he with the selfless virtue of a true arahant will in turn give it to the starving beggar child. You'd still gain a million 'merit points' and at the same time the starving child would still be saved. Problem solved. Sorry if it sounded a bit too...calculating..manas wrote:If I have an apple in my hand, and before me I see a starving beggar child, and a plump arahant on alms round..
Which seems to still rest on a transaction based morality, a business deal.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Label it whatever way you like. I'd just call it a win-win..clw_uk wrote:Which seems to still rest on a transaction based morality, a business deal
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
What David said.Sekha wrote:And in virtue of what?SDC wrote: You'll NEVER see a plump arahant. Ever. Unless of course it's due to a medical condition they have no control over.
If you disagree it is likely that we share different views of the characteristics of an arahant.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
santa100 wrote:Label it whatever way you like. I'd just call it a win-win..clw_uk wrote:Which seems to still rest on a transaction based morality, a business deal
So you get something as well as the other person?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
santa100 wrote:Label it whatever way you like. I'd just call it a win-win..clw_uk wrote:Which seems to still rest on a transaction based morality, a business deal
You could have said you would give it to the hungry, because the arahant would be free from dukkha in relation to hunger
Yet you choose the option that (apparently) gives "you" maximum benefit in terms of "merit"
Once again a business deal, bound up with selfishness and dukkha because of the ego
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
David N. Snyder wrote:
So you want a Buddhism without cultural accretions? Nothing wrong with that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Obviously your solution is not a win-win. Oh, and your 2nd sentence is false since it's not just me who get the benefit. By the way, how do I know if it's not out of your own egoistic and selfish view to keep labeling mine as selfish?clw_uk wrote:You could have said you would give it to the hungry, because the arahant would be free from dukkha in relation to hunger
Yet you choose the option that (apparently) gives "you" maximum benefit in terms of "merit"
Once again a business deal, bound up with selfishness and dukkha because of the ego
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Obviously your solution is not a win-win. Oh, and your 2nd sentence is false since it's not just me who get the benefit. By the way, how do I know if it's not out of your own egoistic and selfish view to keep labeling mine as selfish?
Well in Buddhist terms, you would give out of compassion and not act in terms that enforce the ego, which your first post strongly implied.
Giving to the hungry child would be more ethical, in Buddhist terms, because the arahant could experience hunger and not be stressed by it. However giving to the arahant, because you get merit, who gives to the child smacks of an egotistical business deal.
And I dont know if i know or not know that you don't know if it is my egoistic intention or not
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Live in the present, be mindful , do what is wholesome, recognise that karma is the mechanism that makes you accountable for you intentions/action but don’t dwell on it (past or future)
OR
Cut the apple in half, have a two way bet and takeaway the reason for people to use questionable speech to each other.
Metta
paul
OR
Cut the apple in half, have a two way bet and takeaway the reason for people to use questionable speech to each other.
Metta
paul
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Well, i wouldn't call not making offering to an arahant is real compassion either. By the way, I achieve the same objective of saving the child just like you and further more made some extra other positive contributions.clw_uk wrote:Well in Buddhist terms, you would give out of compassion and not act in terms that enforce the ego, which your first post strongly implied.
And I dont know if i know or not know that you don't know if it is my egoistic intention or not
That's fine that you don't know. That's why I'd be more reserved in passing judgement the next time around..
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Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
In what circumstances is it better to act immorally than to act morally out of mere prudence?clw_uk wrote:As always that depends on the circumstances.To keep one’s precepts merely out of a prudential wish to avoid unpleasant vipākas no doubt bespeaks of an inferior level of motivation, but don't you think it's better than not being motivated towards sīla at all? And I doubt the unkilled bugs would find it in the least sad.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: I'd feed a starving child before a plump arahant
Your question is loaded from the start. You also haven't defined, or proved, what "immorality" is. Yet no matter, I"ll give you "immorality" (assuming we agree on the definition of the word, which would seem the best starting place).In what circumstances is it better to act immorally than to act morally out of mere prudence?
Yet if you was a time traveler and had the option of killing Hitler as a baby, or letting him live, what would you do?
Or if you hid some Jews, homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses in your house/monastery, and the SS came knocking, would you lie or tell the truth?
In both cases to kill hitler, and to lie to save the "subhumans", is immoral in "Buddhist" terms, yet the context demands a differenent perspective that colours it.
Therefore assuming you wouldn't give up a gay man to the SS, you would lie due to the situation. Thus context defines, or at least influneces, morality (if it exists).
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”