Sounds good to me, generally.chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion. If one reads the Loka suttas and The All Sutta it is difficult to think of the concept of internal vs. external to be anything other than conventional speech.......seems like conventional speech whose purpose is to engage people by using their conventional views of the world and then encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view........I guess.......don't know for sure.......
chownah
Interconnected
Re: Interconnected
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Interconnected
Oh, no!!! Conventional and {{{gasp}}} ultimate speech? The Buddha's "conventional speech" teachings are less true than the "ultimate speech" teachings?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion. If one reads the Loka suttas and The All Sutta it is difficult to think of the concept of internal vs. external to be anything other than conventional speech.......seems like conventional speech whose purpose is to engage people by using their conventional views of the world and then encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view........I guess.......don't know for sure.......
chownah
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Interconnected
Hi,
This from P.A Payutto's
"Dependent Origination.
The Buddhist Law of Conditionality"
"All facets of the natural order -- the physical world and the human world, the world of conditions (dhamma) and the world of actions (kamma), the material world and the mental world -- are connected and interrelated, they cannot be separated. Disorder and aberration in one sector will affect other sectors. If we want to live in peace, we must learn how to live in harmony with all spheres of the natural environment, both the internal and the external, the individual and the social, the physical and the mental, the material and the immaterial.
To create true happiness it is of utmost importance that we not only reflect on the interrelationship of all things in the natural order, but also see ourselves clearly as one system of causal relationships within that natural order, becoming aware first of the internal mental factors, then those in our life experiences, in society, and ultimately in the world around us. This is why, of all the systems of causal relationship based on the law "because there is this, that arises; when this ceases that ceases," the teachings of Buddhism begin with, and stress throughout, the factors involved in the creation of suffering in individual awareness -- "because there is ignorance, there are volitional formations." Once this system of causal relationship is understood on the inner level, we are then in a position to see the connections between these inner factors and the causal relationships in society and the natural environment. This is the approach adopted in this book".
It makes sense to me
This from P.A Payutto's
"Dependent Origination.
The Buddhist Law of Conditionality"
"All facets of the natural order -- the physical world and the human world, the world of conditions (dhamma) and the world of actions (kamma), the material world and the mental world -- are connected and interrelated, they cannot be separated. Disorder and aberration in one sector will affect other sectors. If we want to live in peace, we must learn how to live in harmony with all spheres of the natural environment, both the internal and the external, the individual and the social, the physical and the mental, the material and the immaterial.
To create true happiness it is of utmost importance that we not only reflect on the interrelationship of all things in the natural order, but also see ourselves clearly as one system of causal relationships within that natural order, becoming aware first of the internal mental factors, then those in our life experiences, in society, and ultimately in the world around us. This is why, of all the systems of causal relationship based on the law "because there is this, that arises; when this ceases that ceases," the teachings of Buddhism begin with, and stress throughout, the factors involved in the creation of suffering in individual awareness -- "because there is ignorance, there are volitional formations." Once this system of causal relationship is understood on the inner level, we are then in a position to see the connections between these inner factors and the causal relationships in society and the natural environment. This is the approach adopted in this book".
It makes sense to me
Re: Interconnected
I have no idea what """{{{gasp}}} ultimate speech""" is......but it seems like it might have something to do with loss of breath control......or maybe it is how one speaks if ones vocal chords do not function so one must gasp air and then vocalize while belching the air out.......I'll bet that is right!....."""{{{gasp}}} ultimate speech""" is belch-speak....right? Did the Buddha invent belch-speech?tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no!!! Conventional and {{{gasp}}} ultimate speech? The Buddha's "conventional speech" teachings are less true than the "ultimate speech" teachings?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion. If one reads the Loka suttas and The All Sutta it is difficult to think of the concept of internal vs. external to be anything other than conventional speech.......seems like conventional speech whose purpose is to engage people by using their conventional views of the world and then encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view........I guess.......don't know for sure.......
chownah
chownah
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Re: Interconnected
Wow!! A really precious attempt at humor, but you avoided addressing what you said. You have just drawn a distinction between the speech of SN IV 15 -- the all -- and that of the "internal/external" notions as found in the Satipatthana Sutta, the latter of which you characterize as possibly arbitrary and possibly based upon illusion. And this satipatthana type "conventional" speech's real function, according to you it seems, is to point to "the all."chownah wrote:I have no idea what """{{{gasp}}} ultimate speech""" is......but it seems like it might have something to do with loss of breath control......or maybe it is how one speaks if ones vocal chords do not function so one must gasp air and then vocalize while belching the air out.......I'll bet that is right!....."""{{{gasp}}} ultimate speech""" is belch-speak....right? Did the Buddha invent belch-speech?tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no!!! Conventional and {{{gasp}}} ultimate speech? The Buddha's "conventional speech" teachings are less true than the "ultimate speech" teachings?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion. If one reads the Loka suttas and The All Sutta it is difficult to think of the concept of internal vs. external to be anything other than conventional speech.......seems like conventional speech whose purpose is to engage people by using their conventional views of the world and then encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view........I guess.......don't know for sure.......
chownah
chownah
In other words, you have drawn is distinction between two types of speech found in the suttas. One is conventional and the other, you seem to suggest, more accurately reflects reality. I am simply asking you, in your drawing this distinction, if you regard what you called "conventional speech," as we see it in MN 10, less true than what is found in SN IV 15.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Interconnected
Definitely. There is the social, political and economic interconnectedness; the physical world, meteorology interconnectedness; the butterfly effect. And from a purely scientific-materialism perspective, there is interconnectedness:tiltbillings wrote: Whether we want it or not, on some level there is an interconnectedness.
"The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them in their cores and exploded these enriched ingredients across our galaxy, billions of years ago. For this reason, we are biologically connected to every other living thing in the world. We are chemically connected to all molecules on Earth. And we are atomically connected to all atoms in the universe. We are not figuratively, but literally stardust."
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Astrophysicist
http://www.haveabit.com/neil-degrasse-tyson/34002
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Re: Interconnected
It does suggest interconnectedness.mikenz66 wrote:are very suggestive.Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Interconnected
Isn't it just saying we're made of the same stuff that's "out there"?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Interconnected
In this and your subsequent post you seem to have created some phantasy which includes me in a central role. In this phantasy I seem to have the view that there are two types of speech called conventional and ultimate.......and I seem to be of the view that there are two types of teachings called conventional speech teachings and ultimate speech teachings......and that I have drawn a distinction between these two types of speech as found in the suttas....and that the distinction I am drawing has to do with which one more accurately depicts reality and/or truth.tiltbillings wrote:Oh, no!!! Conventional and {{{gasp}}} ultimate speech? The Buddha's "conventional speech" teachings are less true than the "ultimate speech" teachings?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion. If one reads the Loka suttas and The All Sutta it is difficult to think of the concept of internal vs. external to be anything other than conventional speech.......seems like conventional speech whose purpose is to engage people by using their conventional views of the world and then encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view........I guess.......don't know for sure.......
chownah
This is all YOUR phantasy and as far as I can tell it is not in any way based upon my post........this phantasy is not where I am coming from and I have no intention of going there.
I do not know what ultimate speech is. I do not know any way of considering speech to be ultimate in any sense regardless of who is speaking it......the Buddha included. If asked to define "ultimate speech"I am more inclined to call it an oxymoron than anything else.
You could try to define ultimate speech for me but you might as well save your breath as I already have long held views that speech can not be in any way ultimate......but if it is in your heart then fire away.
I could try to refine my meaning of conventional speech at your request but you should first understand that it is unlikely that you can drag me into your phantasy........I'm clinging very tenaciously onto my own.
chownah
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Re: Interconnected
Obviously, you make a statement and it is empty of substance, which is, apparently, your idea of the perfect Buddhist exposition. Sorry to have expected otherwise. Carry on.chownah wrote: . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Interconnected
It is saying that. Also, while it is talking about external and internal it is not really showing a distinction between them....in fact it seems to be saying that there is no distinction between them at least in regards to elements.....Spiny Norman wrote:Isn't it just saying we're made of the same stuff that's "out there"?chownah wrote:I agree that lines like this........:
Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property.
.........are very suggestive. To me it suggests that the concept of internal and external is arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion.
I asked before about with reference to what is something internal or external and so far the answers give did not answer this question. The answers given did give views on what kinds of things are external and what kinds of things are internal but this is not the same thing as explaining with reference to what. For example if I had a jar of pickles and asked with reference to what is there internal and external one might answer that the world is external and pickles are internal....but this would not tell with reference to what......the best answer being with respect to the jar there is internal and external. Of course then there is the problem as to whether the glass of the jar is internal to the jar or external to the jar but that's another story.
So, I am still asking with respect to what is there internal and external back in those posts which brought up the issue of internal and external.
chownah
Re: Interconnected
It wasn't empty of substance according to how I was able to read it, so this is confusing (empty of a self, sure... is this what you mean?). As far as I could tell, the confusion was over the use of the phrase 'conventional language' - as though any language could be otherwise! But it seemed to me that the point was that, given a conventional distinction, it's possible to see it as conventional for oneself, and that hanging anything important on such a convention isn't going to make much hay.tiltbillings wrote:Obviously, you make a statement and it is empty of substance, which is, apparently, your idea of the perfect Buddhist exposition. Sorry to have expected otherwise. Carry on.chownah wrote: . . .
I'm easily mistaken.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Interconnected
Is this your ultimate speach on this subject?tiltbillings wrote:Obviously, you make a statement and it is empty of substance, which is, apparently, your idea of the perfect Buddhist exposition. Sorry to have expected otherwise. Carry on.chownah wrote: . . .
chownah
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Re: Interconnected
"as though any language could be otherwise" That would be my point, even SN IV 15; however, the characterization of the "concept[s] of internal and external is [are] arbitrary, artificial, and perhaps based on illusion . . . that encourages them to see the arbitrary, artificial, or illusory nature of that view" seriously misses the point of the Buddha's use of language in the suttas as a basis for practice.daverupa wrote:It wasn't empty of substance according ot how I was able to read it, so this is confusing. As far as I could tell, the confusion was over the use of the phrase 'conventional language' - as though any language could be otherwise! Haha.tiltbillings wrote:Obviously, you make a statement and it is empty of substance, which is, apparently, your idea of the perfect Buddhist exposition. Sorry to have expected otherwise. Carry on.chownah wrote: . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Interconnected
I have no idea what you mean by "ultimate speach."chownah wrote:Is this your ultimate speach on this subject?tiltbillings wrote:Obviously, you make a statement and it is empty of substance, which is, apparently, your idea of the perfect Buddhist exposition. Sorry to have expected otherwise. Carry on.chownah wrote: . . .
chownah
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723