Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

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danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi Peter, Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
PeterB wrote:May all those struggling with pernicious addictions find the warm hearted support that they need.
It is what it really comes down to, far more than any technique, the human element of com-passion, sym-pathy, em-pathy, or in Pali, anu-kampati, to move with.
I agree. Sadhu. I've experienced much compassion, sympathy, and empathy in SMART Recovery, psychotherapy, Buddhist groups where I've publicly committed to the precepts, and other groups I've participated in that have helped me in recovery. However, Tilt, are you saying anu-kampati is not a technique?
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:How long has smart recovery been in existence? Where does the money from that "donate" link go?
The first question was answered earlier in this thread, as the second. Regarding the second question:
Just click on the "donate" link from this page: SMART Recovery
If that's not satisfying enough, try this.
SMART Recovery Anual Report
And while SMART Recovery is a legal non-profit, AA is an incorporated business, meaning that financial profit is one of their purposes. This has been the case since its inception.
From this Twelve Things That Alcoholics Anonymous Doesn't Want You to Know
Over ten billion dollars per year is spent promoting AA: 12 step treatment programs were invented by AA members for the purpose of promoting AA to a captive audience. The world's first 12 step treatment program was created in Ohio in 1940 through the collaboration of AA co-fonder Dr. Bob Smith and a Catholic nun named Sister Ignatia at St Thomas Hospital (Darrah, 2001). Shortly thereafter several AA members got together in Minnesota to found Hazelden treatment center in Minnesota (McElrath, 1987). Ninety-five percent of hospitals and treatment centers in the US use the 12 steps not because the 12 steps are effective at treating drinking problems, but rather because AA has been highly effective at doing PR to promote AA. AA member Marty Mann founded the National Council on Alcoholism in 1944 for the sole purpose of doing PR for AA; she was eventually fronted millions of dollars by AA member Brinkley Smithers for this purpose (Peele 1997). According to Stanton Peele [Diseasing of America: How we allowed recovery zealots and the treatment industry to convince us we are out of control. Peele, S. (1989, 1995]. Lexington, MA/San Francisco: Lexington Books/Jossey-Bass.) over ten billion dollars a year alone is spent on 12 step treatment programs in the US. Twelve step treatment programs don't cure drunks but they do promote AA. This is not to mention the money spent by the National Council on Alcoholism and the fact that every TV show you see these days has an AA character in it. This is clearly a program of "promotion, not attraction."
See also:
Documents concerning AA Web Site Inc.
Orange Papers
The William Griffith Wilson (Bill W.) Estate & Lois Burnham Wilson Estate
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:However, Tilt, are you saying amu-kampati is not a technique?
I would say that it is not dependent upon technique, or a technique.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi m0rl0ck, chownah,
chownah wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:
Definition of Alcoholism -- published by the Journal of the American Medical Association
"Alcoholism is a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by continuous or periodic: impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial ."
http://step12.com/alcoholics-definition.html

Thats what i mean when i use the term.
So if we should discuss something related to alcoholism we should be very careful in mutually understanding which definition we are to use in the discussion.....otherwise it is pretty much inevitable that we will be talking past each other.
chownah
I'm glad you brought this up. As the excerpt I posted earlier in this thread from the Gary Greenburg's The Noble Lie: When Scientists Give the Right Answers for the Wrong Reasons demonstrates, if alcoholism is a disease, it's unlike no other disease. It does not conform to pathological progression. I prefer to call it or addiction a disorder, as long as it's not correlated with the un-scientific DSM. The disease notion of addiction has been challenged on several fronts.
Alcoholism: a disease of speculation
Addiction: A Disorder of Choice
Alcoholics Anonymous and the Disease Concept of Alcoholism
Diseasing of America: How we allowed recovery zealots and the treatment industry to convince us we are out of control. Peele, S. (1989, 1995). Lexington, MA/San Francisco: Lexington Books/Jossey-Bass.
Sociological Aspects of the Disease Model of Alcoholism
The Rebirth of the Disease Concept of Alcoholism in the 20th Century
See also:
E. Morton Jellinek
Kindly,
dL
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:However, Tilt, are you saying anu-kampati is not a technique?
I would say that it is not dependent upon technique, or a technique.
I understand it literally means "cry out with the suffering of another." If that's the case, it's not a technique any more than any emotional experience is a technique. However, working with the brahmvihara is a technique in the sense that it is a practice, and it is a practice that utilizes empathy, sympathy and compassion. What is your understanding of the relationship of the brahmavihara to anu-kampati?
Kindly,
dL
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi PeterB,
PeterB wrote:...The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
This appears to me to be another false dichotomy and another case of All-Or-Nothing Thinking and overgeneralizing (cf. David D. Burns' cognitive distortions) and inflexible, rigid irrationality (cf. Albert Ellis' irrational beliefs). The first hint is your use of the word "any," which highlights the falsity of the distinction: critiquing vs. experiencing. Critiquing involves not only a basis in experience but is itself a form of experiencing. Futhermoer, the qualifier "actual" betrays yet another likely false dichotomy: non-actual vs. actual.
Kindly,
dL
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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:However, Tilt, are you saying anu-kampati is not a technique?
I would say that it is not dependent upon technique, or a technique.
I understand it literally means "cry out with the suffering of another."
it literaly meansto move, not unlike the root meanings of sympathy, and compassion.
If that's the case, it's not a technique any more than any emotional experience is a technique. However, working with the brahmvihara is a technique in the sense that it is a practice, and it is a practice that utilizes empathy, sympathy and compassion. What is your understanding of the relationship of the brahmavihara to anu-kampati?
The brahmaviharas are nice and serve a purpose, not unlike the precept, in that they are indicators of what awakened behavior and feelings are like. Compassion/anukampā is less an emotional tone/feeling and more a response mediated by insight/vipassana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
Posts: 1947
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Hi m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:With my alcoholism the cost benefit analysis was simple, stop drinking and live, continue and die.
Which is, nonetheless, still a cost-benefit analysis. It's also one of the most important cost-benefit analyses, and, I think, a motivating factor behind the Buddha recommending meditation and contemplation of death to some.
Kindly,
dL
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Thanks for elaborating, Tilt. I'll reflect on that.
Kindly,
dL
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

danieLion wrote:However, Tilt, are you saying anu-kampati is not a technique?
Tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it is not dependent upon technique, or a technique.
danieLion wrote:I understand it literally means "cry out with the suffering of another."
Tiltbillings wrote:it literaly meansto move, not unlike the root meanings of sympathy, and compassion.
If that's the case, there is a technique-like (pratice) implication of anukampa via the compassion (karuna) and sympathy (mudita) components of the brahmavihara, no?
Kindly,
dL
PeterB
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by PeterB »

danieLion wrote:Hi PeterB,
PeterB wrote:...The interventions will be as effective as the relationship is viable.
This is the difference between any critique and actual daily experience.
This appears to me to be another false dichotomy and another case of All-Or-Nothing Thinking and overgeneralizing (cf. David D. Burns' cognitive distortions) and inflexible, rigid irrationality (cf. Albert Ellis' irrational beliefs). The first hint is your use of the word "any," which highlights the falsity of the distinction: critiquing vs. experiencing. Critiquing involves not only a basis in experience but is itself a form of experiencing. Futhermoer, the qualifier "actual" betrays yet another likely false dichotomy: non-actual vs. actual.
Kindly,
dL
I am sure you are right.
Many blessings.

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
danieLion wrote:However, Tilt, are you saying anu-kampati is not a technique?
Tiltbillings wrote:I would say that it is not dependent upon technique, or a technique.
danieLion wrote:I understand it literally means "cry out with the suffering of another."
Tiltbillings wrote:it literaly meansto move, not unlike the root meanings of sympathy, and compassion.
If that's the case, there is a technique-like (pratice) implication of anukampa via the compassion (karuna) and sympathy (mudita) components of the brahmavihara, no?
The brahmaviharas can have several very useful functions within one's practice, but they are not necessary. The sort of compassion I am talking about is not some sort of warm fuzzy or heart wrenching emotion in response to photos of staving children in dusty countries. It is, rather, a response to a situation, and ideally from a Buddhist perspective is comes from a place of insight, and is not necessarily an emotion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion »

Very nicely put, Tilt. Thanks.-dL
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mirco
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by mirco »



Dear tiltbillings,
tiltbillings wrote:The brahmaviharas can have several very useful functions within one's practice, but they are not necessary.
maybe not for you. Proclaiming it generally for every being seems shortsighted to me.





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Aloka
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by Aloka »

mirco wrote:Dear tiltbillings,
tiltbillings wrote:The brahmaviharas can have several very useful functions within one's practice, but they are not necessary.
maybe not for you. Proclaiming it generally for every being seems shortsighted to me.
Hi mirco,

How is that statement actually "proclaiming it generally for every being?" It didn't seem that way to me when I looked at it.

With kind wishes,

Aloka
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