the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:26 pm

cooran wrote:Jhana4,

If you don't see any point in a thread - don't enter the discussion,

With metta,
Chris
Translation: "If you have a critical opinion, the door is that way" ?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

Dinsdale
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:28 pm

daverupa wrote:And we should care what's in our bowls because we should be attending to our own training with great concern - but a lot of this thread is caring about what's in other peoples' bowls, grouping others and expressing ill-will towards those groups, and so forth...
OK, so it's about training. But we often debate different approaches to training on this forum.
Here's another one: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13559
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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mikenz66
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:24 pm

Hi Jhana4,
Jhana4 wrote:
cooran wrote:Jhana4,

If you don't see any point in a thread - don't enter the discussion,

With metta,
Chris
Translation: "If you have a critical opinion, the door is that way" ?
A number of topics cause endless debate on Buddhist forums, the top two being Rebirth and Vegetarianism. Some time ago the administrators and moderators of this site made the decision to merge and confine those discussions into single threads on in the Open Dhamma Forum.

Other such threads include:
The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate
"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

The point about having such threads, and the Open Dhamma Forum itself, is that these contentious topics are confined to one place, as explained in the Terms of Service:
Posts whose intention is to debate contentious topics (such as rebirth) should be started in the Open Dhamma Forum. Posts that the moderators deem to be contentious or argumentative will be moved to the Open Dhamma Forum.

Critical opinion is fine, but our experience is that the Forum works better if certain contentious topics are kept in one place.

If you disagree with Forum Policy then the correct place to discuss it is in the Suggestion Box.

:anjali:
Mike

Jhana4
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:59 pm

My short two line post wasn't about bringing the policy of this board up. It was questioning the regular participants of this thread as to why the would want to be regular contributors to this thread.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:58 am

Jhana4 wrote:My short two line post wasn't about bringing the policy of this board up. It was questioning the regular participants of this thread as to why the would want to be regular contributors to this thread.
I don't know if I qualify as regular or not but I post here to learn about stuff......sometimes I get new ideas from reading the posts here........when it all starts to look like nothing but struggle I usually just stop posting as witnessing endless struggle is not interesting and thought provoking for me.......or the thoughts it provokes do not seem to be helpful.
chownah

beingnobody
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by beingnobody » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:58 pm

What's missing from this argument is the fact that the production of meat uses way more natural resources and arable land than that of non-meat agricultural goods. In addition, the issue of not being able to afford vegetarianism simply doesn't reflect the reality of most people in the world, who eat meat only rarely and on special occasions. This poster is likely from the United States, where massive grain subsidies drive the market price of meat to unbelievably low levels. Elsewhere on the planet (Latin America, Africa, Asia), meat is a secondary food, and its frequent consumption a major landmark of one's emergence into the middle class.
daverupa wrote::soap:

There may be bigger fish to fry: with roughly 70% of usable water locked up in agriculture, and human population growth being what it is, there are huge problems with food security on the horizon for all. There's only so much arable land, there's only so much water, and a world-spanning farm would be a biome holocaust of horrific consequence.

To extend a metaphor, I think this whole discussion is addressing very important trees, but there's a forest in danger. I want to take this opportunity to suggest that for anyone trying to eat food ethically, long-term food security issues deserve to be front and center whether or not animal protein is being consumed.

Consider the water. Consider what a world of just farmland looks like. Consider what nine billion people are going to eat in the year 2050. And so forth.

:focus:

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:02 pm

Found this today in another online forum. Thought you might be amazed and amused:

http://www.freesangha.com/forums/coffee ... -animals)/
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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cooran
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:11 am

Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:23 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris
The verdict: PETA's claim is correct, but there's more to the story. A poorly planned vegetarian/vegan diet can result in nutritional deficiencies and other health problems, and it is misleading to suggest an absence of meat alone will bring about weight loss.
That, is what you call a "straw man".
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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manas
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by manas » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:52 am

Hi everyone,
just a little input from an ex-vegetarian, I have recently begun working out a a gym, doing weight training to build up upper body muscular strength (if you saw how thin I am you would understand why I have to do this), and I must say that since I've been including modest amounts of fish and free-range chicken in my diet, that I seem to be improving not just in physical strength, but also in general wellbeing. I still think that if one can do it, one ought to be totally vegetarian, due to the suffering endured by animals, but maybe for some people, a bit of animal flesh in the diet is necessary to really thrive? In any case, once I've rebuilt my long-neglected physique, I intend to move back towards a vegetarian diet if I can, so long as I don't grow weak again in the process. (As an aside, I have experimented with eating some lamb also, but found it too 'heavy' for my system, and something seems 'wrong' about the taste, so I'm listening to my body, and not eating the flesh of mammals (pork is out of the question due to parasites, and beef is very unpleasant in my recollection, so I'm not even going there).
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben » Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:27 am

That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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manas
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by manas » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:43 pm

Ben wrote:That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
'
'
Thanks Ben,

you have sparked an interesting memory in me. I can remember when I first met up with my old Hindu friends, and was moving towards a vegetarian diet, about 20 years back. I did notice that my mind and body sort of 'cleared up' as a result of adopting that diet. I will consider what you say once more. Maybe I could build up my body with just (free-range) eggs and yoghurt as the only source of animal protein after all, along with beans, nuts etc, despite what some people are telling me. I remember how once, I got these lamb chops and found pus in them...and how that was the 'final straw' for me, and how I adopted the vegetarian diet from then on...oh how that memory still makes me shudder a little inwardly.

kind regards

manas.
:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:26 am

manas,
Are you saying that an instance of aversion is what precipitated your changing to a vegetarian diet?
chownah

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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:32 pm

Al Gore is finally a vegan. I say finally because he has always claimed to be this big-time environmentalist and numerous studies have shown that the biggest cause of greenhouse gases is the animal agriculture.
Known across the globe for his political career, Mr. Gore rose to even bigger fame with the release of his 2006 Oscar-winning documentary "An Inconvenient Truth"--which raised awareness about climate change.
That very same year, the United Nations released their report Livestock's Long Shadow, a groundbreaking study that shows animal agriculture creates more greenhouse gases than all the transportation in the world combined.
http://www.mfablog.org/2013/11/al-gore-goes-vegan.html

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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Gore will be a fantastic advocate for plant-based diets.
I wish him well with his culinary adventures.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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