judgment-free awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
sphairos
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by sphairos »

perhaps it's worth mentioning in this context that judgment-free awareness is the very core of the modern MBSR-therapy (and the like, of course, which are many these days):
Mindfulness means paying attention in a particular way; On purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally (Jon Kabat-Zinn)
http://www.wildmind.org/applied/daily-l ... indfulness
It's also worth considering that absence of judgement lies at the very core of the humanistic psychology and therapy:
Rogers asserted that the most important factor in successful therapy is the relational climate created by the therapist's attitude to their client. He specified three interrelated core conditions:

Congruence - the willingness to transparently relate to clients without hiding behind a professional or personal facade.
Unconditional Positive Regard - the therapist offers an acceptance and prizing for their client for who he or she is without conveying disapproving feelings, actions or characteristics and demonstrating a willingness to attentively listen without interruption, judgement or giving advice.
Empathy - the therapist communicates their desire to understand and appreciate their clients perspective.
See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person-cen ... Conditions

And I would also say that it - the very judgement-free awareness - is one of the main features of psychoanalytical treatment.
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Mr Man
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Mr Man »

The context is practicing within the discipline and the tradition, this is a safe guard. No doubt Ajahn Chah had great faith/confidence in the way of practice through putting in the time and be committed to it and seeing the results.

I think it is really not that hard to get a feel for "rest with things as they are" and experience "where it is cool" but having the confidence and the vigilance to go with it is where we fall down.
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kirk5a
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by kirk5a »

The OP quotations could be seen as an "exhortation in brief" which have an "in detail" explication that helps more precisely draw out the meaning and resolve wrong ways of understanding what was said. The section below is how Ven. Mālunkyaputta described his understanding of instructions given to him by the Buddha, which are identical to those given to Bahiya. (Since the "Bahiya instructions" have been held out as what, in the suttas, would correspond to this practice of "judgment-free awareness")
Ven. Mālunkyaputta wrote: Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.
- SN 35.95 BB trans.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
sphairos
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by sphairos »

Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?
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How true are your ways?
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

kirk5a wrote:The OP quotations could be seen as an "exhortation in brief" which have an "in detail" explication that helps more precisely draw out the meaning and resolve wrong ways of understanding what was said. The section below is how Ven. Mālunkyaputta described his understanding of instructions given to him by the Buddha, which are identical to those given to Bahiya. (Since the "Bahiya instructions" have been held out as what, in the suttas, would correspond to this practice of "judgment-free awareness")
Ven. Mālunkyaputta wrote: Having seen a form with mindfulness muddled,
Attending to the pleasing sign,
One experiences it with infatuated mind
And remains tightly holding to it.

Many feelings flourish within,
Originating from the visible form,
Covetousness and annoyance as well
By which one's mind becomes disturbed.
For one who accumulates suffering thus
Nibbāna is said to be far away.

... [the same for heard a sound, smelt an odour, enjoyed a taste, felt a contact, known an object] ...

When, firmly mindful, one sees a form,
One is not inflamed by lust for forms;
One experiences it with dispassionate mind
And does not remain holding it tightly.

One fares mindfully in such a way
That even as one sees the form,
And while one undergoes a feeling,
[Suffering] is exhausted, not built up.
For one dismantling suffering thus,
Nibbāna is said to be close by.
- SN 35.95 BB trans.

I think that while this is an important point, what is more important is to ask these 2 questions -

1. how does one not "grasp at the sign" (nimittaggāhī), the process that leads to the chanda, raga, pema (desire, passion, love) or I-making?
2. will judgment-free awareness be able to stop said "grasping"?

I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.
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kirk5a
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by kirk5a »

Just six, O bhikkhus, are the bases for contact,
Where one unrestrained meets with suffering.
Those who know how to restrain them
Dwell uncorrupted, with faith their partner.

Having seen forms that delight the mind
And having seen those that give no delight,
Dispel the path of lust towards the delightful
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
'[The other] is displeasing to me.'

Having heard sounds both pleasant and raucous,
Do not be enthralled with pleasant sound.
Dispel the course of hate towards the raucous,
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
'[This one] is displeasing to me.'

Having smelt a fragrant, delightful scent,
And having smelt a putrid stench,
Dispel aversion towards the stench
And do not yield to desire for the lovely.

Having enjoyed a sweet delicious taste,
And having sometimes tasted what is bitter,
Do not greedily enjoy the sweet taste,
Do not feel aversion towards the bitter.

When touched by pleasant contact do not be enthralled,
Do not tremble when touched by pain.
Look evenly on both the pleasant and painful,
Not drawn or repelled by anything.

When common people of proliferated perception
Perceive and proliferate they become engaged.
Having dispelled every mind-state bound to the home life,
One travels on the road of renunciation.

When the mind is thus well developed in six,
If touched, one's mind never flutters anywhere.
Having vanquished both lust and hate, O bhikkhus,
Go to the far shore beyond birth and death!
SN 35.94 Bhikkhu Bodhi trans.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
pegembara
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by pegembara »

I think that while this is an important point, what is more important is to ask these 2 questions -

1. how does one not "grasp at the sign" (nimittaggāhī), the process that leads to the chanda, raga, pema (desire, passion, love) or I-making?
2. will judgment-free awareness be able to stop said "grasping"?

I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.

Here is one way to do it -
The 90-second rule is totally empowering. That means for 90 seconds, I can watch this happen, I can feel this happen and I can watch it go away. After that, if I continue to feel that fear or feel that anger, I need to look at the thoughts I am thinking that are re-stimulating that circuitry that is resulting in me having this physiology over and over again.
http://www.lifepositive.com/Body/Health ... e82008.asp
That is vipassana, observing the arising and passing away of phenomena.

Are thoughts, feelings, perceptions permanent or impermanent? Are they really yours etc?
“When you stay stuck in an emotional response, you are choosing it by choosing to continue thinking the same thoughts that retrigger it. We have this incredible ability in our minds to replay but as soon as you replay, you are not here, you are not in the present moment. You are still back in something else and if you continue to replay the exact same line and loop, then you have a predictable result. You can continue to make yourself mad all day and the more you obsess over whatever it is, the more you run that loop, then the more that loop gets energy of its own to manifest itself with minimal amounts of thought, so it will then start on automatic. And it keeps reminding you, ‘Oh yeah, I was mad, I have to rethink that thought.’"
That is papanca.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

kirk5a wrote:
Just six, O bhikkhus, are the bases for contact,
Where one unrestrained meets with suffering.
Those who know how to restrain them
Dwell uncorrupted, with faith their partner.

Having seen forms that delight the mind
And having seen those that give no delight,
Dispel the path of lust towards the delightful
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
'[The other] is displeasing to me.'

Having heard sounds both pleasant and raucous,
Do not be enthralled with pleasant sound.
Dispel the course of hate towards the raucous,
And do not soil the mind by thinking,
'[This one] is displeasing to me.'

Having smelt a fragrant, delightful scent,
And having smelt a putrid stench,
Dispel aversion towards the stench
And do not yield to desire for the lovely.

Having enjoyed a sweet delicious taste,
And having sometimes tasted what is bitter,
Do not greedily enjoy the sweet taste,
Do not feel aversion towards the bitter.

When touched by pleasant contact do not be enthralled,
Do not tremble when touched by pain.
Look evenly on both the pleasant and painful,
Not drawn or repelled by anything.

When common people of proliferated perception
Perceive and proliferate they become engaged.
Having dispelled every mind-state bound to the home life,
One travels on the road of renunciation.

When the mind is thus well developed in six,
If touched, one's mind never flutters anywhere.
Having vanquished both lust and hate, O bhikkhus,
Go to the far shore beyond birth and death!
SN 35.94 Bhikkhu Bodhi trans.

Very good. So, MN 2 lays out 7 methods for dealing with the cankers, so pre-emptive, some reactive and some non-reactive. Does it suggest that judgment-free awareness has no place in the MN 2 schema?
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Mr Man
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Mr Man »

sphairos wrote:Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?

Hi sphairos
That is the context from which Ajahn Chah taught and Ajahn Munindo teaches. Their teaching/insight comes from practicing and living in a certain way.
danieLion
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by danieLion »

Hi all,
Doesn't "judgment-free awareness" suffer from the same defects that Locke's tabula rasa and Rousseau's noble savage/state of nature theories do? Perhaps it's more helpful to just distinguish between skilful judging and unskilful judging, via ardency, alertness, mindfulness, setting aside greed and distress with regard to the world and yoniso manasikara?
Kindly,
dL
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Spiny Norman »

sphairos wrote: And I would also say that it - the very judgement-free awareness - is one of the main features of psychoanalytical treatment.
I first came across the "technique" of fully accepting the present in encounter groups, around 30 years ago. But I'm not clear whether "judgement-free awareness" in this context is actually referring to that approach.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sylvester wrote: I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.
Yes, and also how "judgement-free awareness" is interpreted. I'm not sure I get the connection to the Bahiya passage, which seems more like "proliferation-free awareness"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

danieLion wrote:

Doesn't "judgment-free awareness" suffer from the same defects that Locke's tabula rasa and Rousseau's noble savage/state of nature theories do? Perhaps it's more helpful to just distinguish between skilful judging and unskilful judging, via ardency, alertness, mindfulness, setting aside greed and distress with regard to the world and yoniso manasikara?
Kindly,

Hi ya DL

We should be safe, as long as we bear in mind that the definition of mindfulness includes vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ - giving up/to give up grief and hankering with regard to the world. So, what is the loka/world if not the 4 - ie body, feelings, mind and states? We are supposed to stop fretting over states, which the suttas would include the Hindrances.

One of the odd things about Right Effort is that MN 117 paints it as having a role only in view, resolve, speech, action and livelihood. It's not mentioned in connection with mindfulness or concentration. Is it too coarse for the Concentration Aggregate?

Take a look at the definition of Right Effort in SN 45.8 -
And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.
The problem I find with most interpretations or applications of Right Effort is that they focus on the words in red. If you read the Pali, the sequence is somewhat different -
Katamo ca bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ anuppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Uppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ pahānāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Anuppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ uppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Uppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati, ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo.
Do you see how the sequence is reversed in the Pali to read "For the sake of ABC, he verb, verb, verb, verb." While the standard translations into idiomatic English is perfect, the loss of the Pali structure in translation hides the emphasis. The "For the sake of ABC" is the subordinate clause in Pali, while the principal clause concerns the verbs "he generates desire/chandaṃ janeti" etc etc. Right Effort is not so much concerned with how one suppresses defilements, but is primarily with the development of the motivation and desire. How one principally defeats the defilements in satipaṭṭhāna is not Right Effort (which is the precursor) but more importantly the role of the Wisdom Aggregate.
Last edited by Sylvester on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sylvester wrote: I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.
Yes, and also how "judgement-free awareness" is interpreted. I'm not sure I get the connection to the Bahiya passage, which seems more like "proliferation-free awareness"?

Hi

Based on those suttas that describe the opposites of "grasping at the sign", I think the Bahiya meditation is broader that just "proliferation-free awareness". It would have to include the awareness free of the 2 anusayas of lust and aversion.
sphairos
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by sphairos »

Mr Man wrote:
sphairos wrote:Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?

Hi sphairos
That is the context from which Ajahn Chah taught and Ajahn Munindo teaches. Their teaching/insight comes from practicing and living in a certain way.
Hi Mr Man,

why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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