the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.

Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
And who determines the "deeper meaning' and upon what basis? I think the Buddha was a better teacher than what some of the "deeper meaning" advocates advocate.
Didn't the Buddha say that the dhamma was deep and to be understood by the wise? If so then I guess it is the wise who determine the deeper meaning.

If the shoe fits, wear it.......or else, like me, just prance barefoot through life singing lalalalalallalaa........
chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

clw_uk wrote:
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.

Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
What is the deeper meaning of "with the breakup of the body, after death..." ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote: Didn't the Buddha say that the dhamma was deep and to be understood by the wise? If so then I guess it is the wise who determine the deeper meaning.

If the shoe fits, wear it.......or else, like me, just prance barefoot through life singing lalalalalallalaa........
chownah
Huh? Damdifino what you are trying to say here with this last sentence. The Buddha also said he was not a closed fist teacher, which is what the twilight reading of the Dhamma would suggest he was. I'll take a straightforward Dhamma over one that requires convoluted explanations to understand.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I'll stick with what the suttas are saying in a straightforward manner rather than having to get involved with rather convoluted arguments at reinterpreting them as saying they are saying something other than what they are saying.

Or revealing the deeper meaning ...
What is the deeper meaning of "with the breakup of the body, after death..." ?
Or sickness, aging and death?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:[What is the deeper meaning of...] sickness, aging and death?
Sn 1092, Kappamāṇavapucchā, Nanananda translation wrote:"Unto them that stand midstream,
When the frightful floods flow forth,
To them in decay-and-death forlorn,
An island, Kappa, I shall proclaim.
Owning naught, grasping naught,
The isle is this, none else besides.
Nibbāna, that is how I call that isle,
Wherein is decay decayed and death is dead."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:[What is the deeper meaning of...] sickness, aging and death?
Sn 1092, Kappamāṇavapucchā, Nanananda translation wrote:"Unto them that stand midstream,
When the frightful floods flow forth,
To them in decay-and-death forlorn,
An island, Kappa, I shall proclaim.
Owning naught, grasping naught,
The isle is this, none else besides.
Nibbāna, that is how I call that isle,
Wherein is decay decayed and death is dead."
Metta,
Retro. :)
And I am sure you can explain the deeper meaning of this passage, or give of us Ven Nananada's commentary on it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Nanananda - Nibbana Sermon 2 wrote:name-andform together with consciousness is the rallying point for all
concepts of birth, decay, death and rebirth. All pathways for
verbal expression, terminology and designation converge on
name-and-form together with consciousness. The range of wisdom
extends only up to the relationship between these two. And
it is between these two that there is a whirling round so that
one may point out a this-ness. In short, the secret of the entire
saṃsāric existence is to be found in this whirlpool.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Nanananda - Nibbana Sermon 2 wrote:name-andform together with consciousness is the rallying point for all
concepts of birth, decay, death and rebirth. All pathways for
verbal expression, terminology and designation converge on
name-and-form together with consciousness. The range of wisdom
extends only up to the relationship between these two. And
it is between these two that there is a whirling round so that
one may point out a this-ness. In short, the secret of the entire
saṃsāric existence is to be found in this whirlpool.
Metta,
Retro. :)
Okay, but that does not deny birth, sickness, old-age and death actually happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Sylvester »

I wonder if anyone has actually done a survey of the 4 Nikayas to see how paraloka (other world) is used, especially when contrasted with idhaloka (this world). I can't see how these suttas could possibly be interpreted in a metaphorical or allegorical way. These suttas do not seem to be those that use loka as being a metaphor for the interior world of the Aggregates. A good example would be AN 8.49, where the other world is an agreeable deva world (devaloka manāpa). I don't believe devaloka is used in the suttas to refer to our interior world, does it?
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I was going to quote something from Nibbana Sermons 14, but it was getting far too long, so if you're really interested in the deeper meaning of those terms, then check out Nibbana Sermon 14.

But, in summary...
Nanananda, Sermon 14 wrote:All this goes to show, that Nibbāna is a state beyond decay
and death. We can clearly understand from this discourse why
Nibbāna is known as a decayless, deathless state, realizable in
this very world. That sage has conquered decay and death here
and now, because he has realized the cessation of existence,
here and now.

This is something extremely wonderful about the arahant.
He realizes the cessation of existence in his attainment to the
fruit of arahant-hood.
How does he come to realize the cessation
of existence? Craving is extinct in him, hence there is no
grasping. Where there is no grasping, there is no existence. Because
there is no existence, birth, decay and death, along with
sorrow and lamentation, cease altogether.
( A link for anyone without a copy: http://lirs.ru/do/sutra/Nibbana_Sermons,Nanananda.pdf )
tiltbillings wrote:Okay, but that does not deny birth, sickness, old-age and death actually happens.
It clarifies the nature of what they actually are, and that they require the erroneous (i.e. avijja) concept of a "self" (which is a thought, i.e. sankhara) existing over time in order to mean anything at all. In the absence of avijja, any reference point to which such terms might have any meaning is transcended.
Mettagūmāṇavapucchā in the Pārāyanavagga of the Sutta Nipāta wrote:"Whatever you may know to be
Above, below and across in the middle,
Dispel the delight and the tendency to dwell in them,
Then your consciousness will not remain in existence.
A monk, endowed with understanding,
Thus dwelling mindful and heedful,
As he fares along giving up all possessions,
Would abandon even here and now
Birth, decay, sorrow, lamentation and suffering."
tiltbillings wrote:I'll take a straightforward Dhamma over one that requires convoluted explanations to understand.
As is your prerogative.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote: Didn't the Buddha say that the dhamma was deep and to be understood by the wise? If so then I guess it is the wise who determine the deeper meaning.

If the shoe fits, wear it.......or else, like me, just prance barefoot through life singing lalalalalallalaa........
chownah
Huh? Damdifino what you are trying to say here with this last sentence. The Buddha also said he was not a closed fist teacher, which is what the twilight reading of the Dhamma would suggest he was. I'll take a straightforward Dhamma over one that requires convoluted explanations to understand.
The wise do not usually provide convoluted explanations as the wise understand that each of us must provide our own convoluted explanations......and I think that each and every one of us does a really excellent job of this.

The Buddha also taught that all views are to be dropped so not only if the shoe fits, wear it but make sure it is a safety shoe with reinforced toes as dropping our heavy views onto an unprotected foot could be painful.......lllallalallalalallalaaaaaa....
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:
Nanananda, Sermon 14 wrote: . . . Where there is no grasping, there is no existence. Because
there is no existence, birth, decay and death, along with
sorrow and lamentation, cease altogether.
Link for anyone who can't find it online: http://lirs.ru/do/sutra/Nibbana_Sermons,Nanananda.pdf
This pushes right into Madhyamaka, and that it is not that I disagree with it, but what this actually means is something that requires a degree of unpacking. However, in doing a quick search of the term "rebirth" in this text, I do not see any evidence that Ven Nanananda is making any sort of argument that rebirth is some sort of metaphorical notion only.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote: Didn't the Buddha say that the dhamma was deep and to be understood by the wise? If so then I guess it is the wise who determine the deeper meaning.

If the shoe fits, wear it.......or else, like me, just prance barefoot through life singing lalalalalallalaa........
chownah
Huh? Damdifino what you are trying to say here with this last sentence. The Buddha also said he was not a closed fist teacher, which is what the twilight reading of the Dhamma would suggest he was. I'll take a straightforward Dhamma over one that requires convoluted explanations to understand.
The wise do not usually provide convoluted explanations as the wise understand that each of us must provide our own convoluted explanations......and I think that each and every one of us does a really excellent job of this.

The Buddha also taught that all views are to be dropped so not only if the shoe fits, wear it but make sure it is a safety shoe with reinforced toes as dropping our heavy views onto an unprotected foot could be painful.......lllallalallalalallalaaaaaa....
chownah
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
Nanananda, Sermon 14 wrote: . . . Where there is no grasping, there is no existence. Because
there is no existence, birth, decay and death, along with
sorrow and lamentation, cease altogether.
Link for anyone who can't find it online: http://lirs.ru/do/sutra/Nibbana_Sermons,Nanananda.pdf
This pushes right into Madhyamaka, and that it is not that I disagree with it, but what this actually means is something that requires a degree of unpacking. However, in doing a quick search of the term "rebirth" in this text, I do not see any evidence that Ven Nanananda is making any sort of argument that rebirth is some sort of metaphorical notion only.
Indeed. See, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p146297
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p101215
Nanananda wrote:This cooling off happens just before death, without igniting an­other spark of life. When Màra comes to grab and seize, the ara­hant lets go. The pain of death with which Màra teases his hapless victim and lures him into another existence, becomes ineffective in the case of the arahant. As he has already gone through the supra­mundane experience of deathlessness, in the arahat­taphala­samà­dhi, death loses its sting when at last it comes. The influx-free deliver­ance of the mind and the influx-free deliverance through wisdom en­able him to cool down all feelings in a way that baffles Màra.

So the arahant lets go of his body, experiencing ambrosial death­lessness. As in the case of Venerable Dabba Mallaputta, he would sometimes cremate his own body without leaving any ashes.[37] Out­wardly it might appear as an act of self-immolation, which in­deed is painful. But this is not so. Using his jhànic powers, he simply em­ploys the internal fire element to cremate the body he has already discarded.

This, then, is the Buddha's extraordinary solution to the problem of overcoming death, a solution that completely outwits Màra.
This certainly sounds like a literal reading of the meaning of death.

:anjali:
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

For my self, and almost everyone else, there is no assurance of realizing nibbana, so that being the case, your chances of realizing nibbana sometime in the future go up infinetly if you have rebirth, without rebirth we have a kind of pie in the sky, small chance of realizing nibbana, and little else, so yes I think rebirth is very important to realizing the dhamma.......As you have a thousand fold increase in your chance of realizing the dhamma over 1000 lifetimes as you do over one.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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