Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

tiltbillings wrote:What you are describing is all interesting stuff, but like anything that arises in meditation, it is stuff - all of it - to let go.
Look! I'm trying to get an understanding of this. Why do you seem to have the need to keep trying to push the buttons of my unresolved hindrances, anyway? If I let just anyone and everyone do whatever the heck they wanted to try and purify me, I would never get any rest. I will deal with the pertinent hindrances at the correct time. It is not up to you. Besides, if letting go was all that was necessary, I wouldn't have been confused about whether there was really enlightenment or not, which I'm beginning to think is just a big hoax. I'm beginning to think that everyone is really just the same, some with the higher states of jhana along with the higher non-material states. I'm not so sure there is such a thing as the ultimate awakening anymore, especially if what you realize when you get there is just nothingness, which is what people have been telling me ever since my experiences prior to coming to Dhamma Wheel. I probably should have left well enough alone and stuck to what I had. Now, I am experiencing old hindrances that I thought had already been extinguished. It sucks!
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

tiltbillings wrote:
flyingOx wrote:te]

So what makes the root of the hindrance actually be extinguished?
Seeing, experiencing, it conditioned, interdependent nature.
I do, but with some hindrances that apparently isn't enough, because some seem to leave, but they never really do. They just get silenced for a time.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

tiltbillings wrote:Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.
I have tried not forcing it, but it takes for ever. How long does one sit there and tunnel into it? I'm beginning to think that all of this stuff is just a giant head game.

Look what you have given me. You have given me extremely confusing, foreign words with complex meanings that cannot be fully described in English, which means that even if I did try to learn Pali, I would never truly understand it the way that it was meant to be understood. I have experienced a sense of personal peace like never before, but I am constantly being told that it isn’t really worth anything. It’s just jhana. Then I achieve the base of infinite empty space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither perception nor non-perception. I am told that that isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to experience the awakening. Which is what? The extinguishing of the roots of the hindrances. I think that that is what I have done. I am told that that still isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to extinguish the roots of any and all forms of conceit. I think that I do, but then they come back. Not only that, but the other kinds of hindrances come back too. What do you expect me to think?

I think that everyone is experiencing the same thing. It’s just that some are lucky enough to fall into the right position, know the right people, or have many people look up to them and respect them. That’s the only difference that I can see. The ones who get looked up to are the ones who go around playing head games with everyone else trying to convince them that they really haven’t experienced anything important yet so that they will feel inferior, and if they don’t buy into it by submitting to the ones being manipulative and judgmental then they are reminded of how much humility that they need to cultivate.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

flyingOx wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then you really have not penetrated to the core of the interdependent nature of what you are seeing. You cannot force it.
I have tried not forcing it, but it takes for ever. How long does one sit there and tunnel into it? I'm beginning to think that all of this stuff is just a giant head game.
How long? It depends, but it is not a matter of tunneling into anything. It is a matter of paying attention, without choice, into whatever rises and falls in the mind/body process. These things are deeply entrenched and subtle, though when the Buddha said greed, hatred, and delusion, he meant GREED, HATRED, AND DELUSION. It is the rare person who is able to get to the root of these things in short order.
Look what you have given me. You have given me extremely confusing, foreign words with complex meanings that cannot be fully described in English, which means that even if I did try to learn Pali, I would never truly understand it the way that it was meant to be understood.
I have used no Pali words here other than vipassana, which simply means insight.
I have experienced a sense of personal peace like never before, but I am constantly being told that it isn’t really worth anything.
Just do not get attached to it. If it leaves, changes, what will you have? If you do feel pain, discomfort, unhappiness when it leaves, that pain and discomfort is just more stuff to watch as it arises and falls, as it comes and goes.

It’s just jhana. Then I achieve the base of infinite empty space, the base of infinite consciousness, the base of nothingness, and the base of neither perception nor non-perception. I am told that that isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to experience the awakening.
Same process the Buddha went trough.
Which is what? The extinguishing of the roots of the hindrances. I think that that is what I have done. I am told that that still isn’t enough. I am told that I still need to extinguish the roots of any and all forms of conceit. I think that I do, but then they come back. Not only that, but the other kinds of hindrances come back too. What do you expect me to think?
If they come back, you have not extinguished them. It takes time and effort.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

I can understand why no one claims to attain anything. Everyone will definitley do their best to embarass you and discourage you by revealing how terribly difficult it is. It takes time and persistence, that's for sure, but it still won't be enough, will it?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

flyingOx wrote:I can understand why no one claims to attain anything. Everyone will definitley do their best to embarass you and discourage you by revealing how terribly difficult it is. It takes time and persistence, that's for sure, but it still won't be enough, will it?

No one is trying to embarrass you or anyone else concerning the difficulty on the path. It is just fact of the matter. It can be discouraging, but as the practice progress one find things a little easier, little lighter, and even for that the path is worth it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Dan74 »

I know Tibetan meditation involves visualization (mostly of deities symbolizing various aspects of enlightened mind. And these can help turn the bad habits/hindrances around and bring them back to their wholesome root (tantra). But not being a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner I am out of my depth here.

Theravada meditation as I understand it involves insight into the dependent originating nature of whatever hindrance is there and the particular clinging/attachment/delusion/ignorance that fuels it. Once that is understood, ignorance is no more, attachment relinquished and there goes the hindrance.

Again not being a Theravada practitioner I am out of my depth, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable can correct the above.

Keep on practicing, dude! (go easy on us oldies - we mean well (yes, even tilt), but we just don't always get the need to come on a forum and raise hell about being enlightened and all that jazz).

Good luck!

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flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

Well, if you can't explain it better, then apparently what you have just isn't enough. I'm not so sure I even believe in anything anymore. I'm really not sure that I believe in enlightenment. I know that we all are capable of experiencing some very peaceful states, but what is that? That isn't enough. I'm beginning to think that all religions, including Buddhism are all a bunch of hoaxes to get you on an endless pursuit of nothingness. How do you know when you get there? Well, apparently you aren't there if you have to ask, but then again, there is no proof that anyone else got there either.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by tiltbillings »

You try it; if it does not work out for, you find no benefit after giving what you think is a fair trial, then let it go.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by Dan74 »

As for the difficulty of the path, that really depends on the person involved. For some it is seemingly impossible and for some quite easy and natural. Like everything else really.

Having preconceptions like easy or difficult, just gets in the way.

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mindfullmom
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by mindfullmom »

Now, I am experiencing old hindrances that I thought had already been extinguished. It sucks!
Flying Ox my heart goes out to you on your journey to make sense of all this.

The goal is IN the jouney, you don't have to find, or get to it or achieve it.

Rest in the awareness of all the states that arise in the mind. The wanting mind, the judging mind. Include them in your practice. These are the great energies of our heart and mind.

If the old hindrances are back, welcome them in and bow to them with respect. :meditate:

Just keep going :thumbsup:
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adosa
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by adosa »

Hi Flying Ox,

You need to chill on Tilt. There's an old saying that many people will tell you what you want to hear, but a true friend will tell you the truth. Do you still get angry, do you still crave for things, are you still attached to a view of self?

You claimed to have attained realization which would equate to the cutting off of greed, anger, and delusion. Then you're told "well maybe not." Then you unload in what appears to be anger. So maybe you were told the truth here. Isn't that friendship and not enmity? Would you rather you be told, "Ah you got it! Liberation." Then walk around deluded for the next, say, billion eons? Keep practicing. If nothing else it's an interesting thing to watch, this deluded thing we call "mind."


Wishing you the best,

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
flyingOx
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by flyingOx »

adosa wrote:Hi Flying Ox,

You need to chill on Tilt. There's an old saying that many people will tell you what you want to hear, but a true friend will tell you the truth. Do you still get angry, do you still crave for things, are you still attached to a view of self?

You claimed to have attained realization which would equate to the cutting off of greed, anger, and delusion. Then you're told "well maybe not." Then you unload in what appears to be anger. So maybe you were told the truth here. Isn't that friendship and not enmity? Would you rather you be told, "Ah you got it! Liberation." Then walk around deluded for the next, say, billion eons? Keep practicing. If nothing else it's an interesting thing to watch, this deluded thing we call "mind."


Wishing you the best,

adosa
I’ve developed a really good jhana meditation practice, that’s all. Apparently, I still get frustrated and angry at times, but it doesn’t really seem like anger. It’s like being in a dream state that isn’t quite real. Detached and indifferent bitterness is a good way to describe it. I have developed such a good jhana meditation that the hindrance of anger is merely silenced. I believe that some of the other hindrances have been completely uprooted, though, but then again, who knows, they too may merely be silenced for a time.

As far as tilt goes, I don’t hold anything against him. He was just trying to help in his own way.
You ask whether I would like to be told that I have attained enlightenment when I really haven’t just to be mislead for aeons upon aeons of years? Well, no, that wouldn’t be very helpful, but I WOULD like to get it over with and not have to worry about it ever again. You say that it is all about the journey, well, I don’t much like that answer, even if it is the truth. This is taking so long that it is beginning to seem like a big run around where no one ever attains anything, since it is supposed to be all about the journey as you say. I’m sorry, but that isn’t good enough. I don’t want to come back to this physical realm anymore. I’m sick of it. I don’t want to come back to this crap! This big mass of suffering!
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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adosa
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Post by adosa »

Hi FlyingOx,

My advice probably isn't worth a hill of beans so take from it what you will. But don't misunderstand what I am saying. I didn't say its all about the journey. It's about observing. I personally find the practice of observing this mind interesting and yet, I too get tired of its repetitive patterns. Sometimes its akin to watching a train wreck. It would seem that letting go would be easier than it really is. My point is that none of us should give up. We have to keep practicing. What other choice do we have?
but I WOULD like to get it over with and not have to worry about it ever again. You say that it is all about the journey, well, I don’t much like that answer, even if it is the truth. This is taking so long that it is beginning to seem like a big run around where no one ever attains anything, since it is supposed to be all about the journey as you say. I’m sorry, but that isn’t good enough. I don’t want to come back to this physical realm anymore. I’m sick of it. I don’t want to come back to this crap! This big mass of suffering!
We all would like to reach the Deathless state. The path is laid out for us. But we have to be patient with ourselves, too. I personally don't believe it's a "big run around". I believe its doable but damn its hard sometimes. Especially when we realize all our former escapes really were dead-ends. So what? Just keep practicing. We're all in the same predicament together if that's any solace. Maybe for now a good batch of Metta meditation and action would help easy the pain of Dukkha. It's something I think many of us, myself included, forget sometimes. Helping the other guy out, who is swirling around with us in Samsara, seems to take the focus off our current plight.

Wishing you well, friend

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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