the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:20 am

I can only respond in brief atm
Craig: "I dont know if it carries on after death of the aggregates."

Tilt - You may not know, but the suttas clearly teach it, as you did acknowledge (though you are now trying desperately to back track from your fit of honesty).
I don't see how I'm backing out of anything :/

As I said, in some of the suttas we have the Buddha teaching that there is birth of "I am" after death. All I said was I don't know if that aspect is true or not, and so dont believe or disbelieve either way but would practice the same regardless. Also that Dhamma practice should be practiced in either situation (rebirth or not).

While you may not believe in literal rebirth, there is no reason to try to rewrite the suttas, nor is there any reason to try to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth, as taught in the suttas, as folks that just do not really, truly understand the Dhamma.

I'm not saying that :/

Just because someone has a view of rebirth doesn't mean they understand Dhamma anyless than I do. I am saying that it isn't essential, and that people can practice Dhamma with or without it.


You do not know if Nibbana is true, either.
No I don't, but belief in Nibbana is essential


If you see the utility in believing in literal rebirth, then I am curious as to why you continue to characterize such believe via your strawman argumentation. No one is saying you MUST believe in rebirth to practice the Dhamma, but I think it would be far more honest of you not to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth in such a prejudicial way as you continue to do.
I'm sorry if I come across that way, that's not my intent. As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:28 am

Yes, a belief in literal rebirth can be an important motivating aspect of practice, otherwise the Buddha would not have taught it.

I agree
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:46 am

Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:47 am

clw_uk wrote:
If you see the utility in believing in literal rebirth, then I am curious as to why you continue to characterize such believe via your strawman argumentation. No one is saying you MUST believe in rebirth to practice the Dhamma, but I think it would be far more honest of you not to characterize those that do believe in literal rebirth in such a prejudicial way as you continue to do.
I'm sorry if I come across that way, that's not my intent. As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:00 am

Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.
Out of interest, how is it a straw man? I don't see how
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by clw_uk » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Thank you :)


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
Well, that is nice, and maybe you will let go of your strawman approach in talking about literal rebirth.
Out of interest, how is it a straw man? I don't see how
That is really that the problem, it would seem. You don't see it. Maybe it would be helpful to always keep in mind that those believe in literal rebirth as taught by the Buddha find it beneficial in terms of their practice, that they are not caught up in unnecessary speculations about kamma and about the future just because they accept the Buddha's teachings about rebirth.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:As I said, what I was trying to put across is that rebirth view is not essential for everyone, someone can practice Dhamma just as well without holding rebirth view as someone who does, and that the practice of Dhamma can continue if there was rebirth or not, and so it's truth or falsity shouldn't impact Dhamma practice (ideally).
For what it's worth, I don't see that you're doing these things that people are often accusing you of... and I think you are enduring their projection very well.

For what it's worth, I don't find the fact that you do not (personally) find rebirth view to be essential, to be in the slightest bit confronting.

It would be nice if the issue could be discussed openly without people trying to second-guess and ascribe agendas to other people, introduce irrelevant distortions etc. but it seems that such openness will not be abided yet... maybe one day.

Enjoy your day.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Well said, Retro !

In general, I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is considered to be acceptable.

:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 am

Aloka wrote:
I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is allowed.

:anjali:
There is no problem with multiple points of view. It is how the differing points of view are regard and portrayed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:37 am

So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:42 am

chownah wrote:So far I have read that literal rebirth view can be good for motivating one to follow the buddha's teachings...for some people. I would like to read about some ways that literal rebirth view enters into someones practice in some way other than as a motivating principle.....do people try to be mindful of it for some reason other than motivation?.....do they contemplate it for some reason other than motivation?....how do people use literal rebirth view to enhance the other teachings....or to mesh in with the other teachings?
chownah
What do you think might be answers to your questions?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:06 am

.

Something that I'd find interesting to read in this thread, would be any personal experiences of rebirth that people have had.
I don't mean things that have been read, or heard from other people, or seen in videos. Nor do I mean the results of "past life regression" sessions with a psychic or a hypnotherapist. I mean experiences of rebirth which have happened without the intervention or assistance of anyone else and without having taken (or had administered medically) any drugs or alcohol.


:anjali:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:32 am

Greetings,

Well, I was told by a colleague today, that he, I and another colleague (who happens also to be a Dhamma Wheel member) used to debate as monks in a previous life in Tibet.

Does that count?

:D

(p.s. now I don't really take what he said altogether seriously in this instance, but I do know that this person does have certain talents which could legitimately be described as paranormal)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:39 am

Aloka wrote: In general, I don't honestly see that there's any point in having this thread called "The Great Rebirth Debate," if only one viewpoint is considered to be acceptable.
But that works both ways.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:45 am

Aloka wrote: I mean experiences of rebirth which have happened without the intervention or assistance of anyone else and without having taken (or had administered medically) any drugs or alcohol.
I've had an long-standing interest in the psychology of dreams, and from time to time I have unusual dreams which feel very much like memories. Once I had an extended series of dreams about life and death as a German soldier on the Russian front in World War Two.

Of course this is all completely entirely subjective and inconclusive, and it isn't a basis for believing in rebirth - but I do find it intriguing.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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