Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:42 pm

christopher::: wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
That is nice, but it is not science. It is religion, which is fine in that context.
It's how religion is adapting to Science, which is very much related to what i thought we've been talking about.
Sure, but as long as the two sphere do not get conflated, not a problem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:46 pm

The whole point of evolution is that it shows ho you get complex life without invoking a god or anything supernatural


As for abiogenesis there isnt a set theory yet (as far as im aware) but the theory of a god behind it isnt going to help the investigation since you put forth and answer to the question that cant be falsified or tested for in any way. It would be no different than me saying life began because of a batman/unicorn monster. There is also not a shred of evidence for it, hence why it comes down to personal beliefs


If we go to the big bang, no we dont know the ins and outs of how it began at the very very begining or what came before but once again, saying "god did it" or "i think god did it" doesnt solve anything and doesnt actually explain anything at all. There is however some scientific ideas about the "pre-universe" via brane cosmology



Life evolved without an agent, no reason why the univese needs and agent in order to function and produce things or have an angent to begin it


I dont mind the whole deist philosophical arguments but not the theists and deists who try to push their beliefs into science


Its interesting that ID has never produced any evidence for its bold claims other than "this is the only way i think it can be"
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:53 pm

We can finds lots of things to debunk in Creationism, but that's really only a fringe group
.

Like "Intelligent Design"
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:59 pm

no its not, all it is is me being open to the possibility instead of closing the opportunity to understand a certian aspect of existance fully.
to borrow from the bible 'the fool in his heart says there is no god' I would say 'the fool in there heart says there is a god, or no god without evidence based on knowable phenomena'
just think of the advances made because people didn't close doors, lock them and throw away the keys because they followed there own conditioning.


Do you believe in Ra, Hathor, Zeus?


Do you believe in Vampires, fairies or the magical fish that grants wishes?


Do you believe in dragons wizards and unicorns or mermaids?


Im betting the answer is no yet you cant absolutely know that they dont exist. You cant get something and say "look this shows that they dont exist anywhere in the universe". In reality none of us can know completely if there are such things we can only go on evidence and the probability of said things existing which is so low that you can be in safe waters to deny they exist or ever did exist


If i said there is a purple elephant in my room called jimmy who speaks french, you would not believe me (i hope) and would deny its existence. However you have no way of completely knowing that there isnt an elephant called jimmy in my room you can only go on the probabilty which is so low its safe to dismiss it. Now if you wanted to be strict about this you would have to admit you cant know there is no elephant in my room but in reality its a safe bet to say there isnt one



I cant say to anyone "there is no god" just as i cant say "there is a god" all i can do is go on evidence and probability which leads us to the conclusions that its very unlikely that there is a god. This is the natural outcome of rational thinking which is why god beliefs fall back on faith, its also why belief in god began to decline after the Enlightenment

If we are being scientific i cant say "god didnt make the universe" any more than someone can say "he did make the unverse" we can only go on evidence and scientific investigation to discover what made the universe happen

IDers dont follow that, they say "god made it happen" despite the fact there is no evidence or way of knowing this, hence its belief and faith and not science in anyway, thats why ID is ignored in scientific circles (and rightly so) and is left to religions and philosophy (rightly so)

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:13 pm

Is that so!

no middle ground there at all? and are you sure?

Intelligent Design is creationism since you claim something created the universe


There are different shades of Creationism, i agree. Some are more out there in their claims, such as man walked with dinosaurs and the world is 6,000 years old. Others have less bizzare claims (the deist camp) but its still not science its philosophy and personal belief, not science (which is what IDers want it to be called)


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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:15 pm

The interesting this about ID, even if one could scientifically prove it, what kind of god/intelligent designer do we conclude from its design.


inept, cruel, lazy, indifferent


Yet for some reason people seem to have a wish that said being exists, strange wish IMO



N.B. Applies to Deistic and Theistic God
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 pm

“Today, many religious denominations accept that biological evolution has produced the diversity of living things over billions of years of Earth’s history. Many have issued statements observing that evolution and the tenets of their faiths are compatible. Scientists and theologians have written eloquently about their awe and wonder at the history of the universe and of life on this planet, explaining that they see no conflict between their faith in God and the evidence for evolution. Religious denominations that do not accept the occurrence of evolution tend to be those that believe in strictly literal interpretations of religious texts. ”


Evolution and other sciences have practically disproved the God of religions (theism) beyond any hope of bringing it back IMO

The last stronghold for a God belief is Deism, even though this doesnt really hold up to well


The common thing i hear from the religious that accept evolution is that God guided it in some way, however as i said earlier evolution shows how you get complex life without any being or intelligence guiding it. And if he did what a lovely being he is encouraging a system that is built on competition and killing, extinction and suffering



Theism states that God made man, evolution proves that nature and natural selection made man. Evolution and God dont go

To me those who accept evolution but yet also have faith in Theism are fence sitting


In relation to ID and other attempts to put god into nature it seems to come down to "the universe is really complicated and I don't understand it, therefore it must be god"

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:27 pm

Good video related to the topic here






Worth a watch

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:35 pm

christopher::: wrote: Where did Dirac's relativistic quantum mechanics come from, so that electrons spin as they do? You say that these dynamics arise naturally from quantum mechanics. I think for scientists this is enough of an explanation, but there is still the question of why the Universe works the way it does, why these laws and properties exist.
Yes, that's what I said was the problem.

I don't see how to have a coherent discussion about what is and isn't obvious to physicists about that problem unless you actually know what the technical issues are.

And that would be true in other areas of science that I have no expertise in.

It's possible that an amateur could come up with a useful idea, but in physics that probably hasn't happened for well over 100 years.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:26 am

Are any of you familiar with Systems science concepts such as self-organization, self-construction, autopoiesis, etc? Chaos theory also relates here, the butterfly effect and such. This is where my interest and studies lie, primarily. I studied Developmental Systems Theory in grad school and apply it constantly in my field, of education and language learning. And unlike physics, where one does need advanced study I think to comprehend many things, systems concepts are more like dharma concepts, something any intelligent person can grasp, imo. You don't need to have a grad school background to understand these concepts, imo, unless you're focused on taking a mathematical approach.

Anyway, the interesting riddle with systems properties is the same with what I was saying about physics. Why does the Universe work this way, how or why are these set laws or principles in place? Cause these properties and principles are universal, they apply to systems of all sizes, from cells to organisms, ecosystems, economic systems, biospheres, solar systems and galaxies. They swirl, self-organize, self-construct, are interdependent, complex systems.

A God or Universal Mind is one possible explanation for why our cosmos works this way. It lies outside Science, surely, but it's still a logical idea, imo. It could also be that our Universe is the child of an earlier Universe, and that Universes themselves evolved over time and that's why our Universe is so fine-tuned. Or perhaps there is Intelligence or Wisdom of sorts in the Field of Energy/Matter from which all forms emerge. We could call this Dharma Nature, Dharmakaya or Tao. It need not be an Intelligence that observes, and isn't Dharma a form of wisdom that is Universal?

Isn't our Universe, with all its compounded systems, an expression of Dharma, from a Buddhist point of view?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:48 am

Yes, I'm familiar with chaos, emergent properties, and so on. That's part of the background of physics for a few decades now and it helps to solve some things. If you can show me some way that these ideas solve the technical problems, such as why the Dirac equation works so well, that would be useful. Unless there are some actual technical solutions it's just idle speculation from the point of view of physics.
Isn't our Universe, with all its compounded systems, an expression of Dharma, from a Buddhist point of view?
Yes, but you seem to be insisting that it is possible to find a single, universal, point of view. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:35 am

Hi Mike. I cannot say how useful systems concepts are in your field, but they definitely are helpful in many fields. Just recognizing that compounded systems work in certain ways helps out a lot i think, whether you're a teacher, parent, economist, office manager, environmental engineer, doctor, band manager, online forum moderator or computer systems engineer. People working with alternative energy systems may be able to benefit by studying the natural energy utilization systems of plants, for example.

My own opinion is that its very useful to make students aware of systems properties. Here's a handout I give to my classes when we study the environmental problems humans are facing now. It helps put everything into a larger context, framework.
ChristophersSystemsScience.jpg
ChristophersSystemsScience.jpg (268.02 KiB) Viewed 928 times
One of my interests is in finding ways to help people break out of dualistic and compartmentalized ways of thinking. Once you become aware of all the various systems in the world, how they are connected, how they work, one can create a unified visual model of everything that exists, that can assist with problem solving...

And is also kind of cool to contemplate.

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am

christopher::: wrote:Why does the Universe work this way, how or why are these set laws or principles in place? Cause these properties and principles are universal, they apply to systems of all sizes, from cells to organisms, ecosystems, economic systems, biospheres, solar systems and galaxies. They swirl, self-organize, self-construct, are interdependent, complex systems.

A God or Universal Mind is one possible explanation for why our cosmos works this way. It lies outside Science, surely, but it's still a logical idea, imo.
Clearly outside of science, but logical? Once you posit a god, you need to explain all sorts of things, the least of which:

"He who eyes can see the sickening sight, why does not God set his creatures right? If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand so rarely spread to bless? Why are his creatures all condemned to pain? Why does he not to all give happiness? Why do fraud, lies, and ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood, -truth and justice fail? I count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong." - J VI.208

"If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery, the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God alone is responsible." - J V.238.

Try as they might to make sense of the idea of a god, theologians end up with: It is all a deep divine mystery, which, of course, explains nothing.

Even outside of realm of science, what would a god or a supposed “universal mind” logically explain?
Isn't our Universe, with all its compounded systems, an expression of Dharma, from a Buddhist point of view?
Depends upon what you mean by Dhamma. So that is up to you to clarify so that we can see if the question makes sense.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:37 am

You dont explain anything with a God or universal mind because you are left with explaining that



The video above makes a good point


Lets say that life on earth was created by an intelligent alien species from another planet, that may explain how life came to be on earth but you havent solved much since you then have to explain how that alien species came to be in order to seed life on earth, if you say they were seeded by aliens themselves then you have to explain those aliens that created the aliens that created life on earth


Putting an intelligence behind something doesnt explain that much at all

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Post by christopher::: » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:45 am

Not all explanations are final explanations. The concept of evolution helps to explain how life became so complex and developed on our planet, but we are still left with the riddle of why this process exists, why we live in a Universe where compounded beings evolve in form. I'm not bothered by that. Not all questions will be answered, it doesn't mean you don't consider partial answers that can explain things.

Responding to Tilt...

We've had this discussion already, in the Advaita discussion, and you did not seem to find satisfaction in my response. The metaphor of God presented as an observing father in the sky, is a very limited concept. Alan Watts has explained this at length in his writing. Have you ever read Watts? The God of the bible does not fit well with the evidence of Science, and what we know about Nature...

But there are many other ways a Supreme Intelligence can be conceptualized. Jechbi and others have talked about this. Myself, the concepts of Dharma or Tao make more sense... Dhamma Nature as Ajahn Chah speaks of it, or the "Great Way" as described by Lao Tsu. All That Is being somewhat like a Field of Dharma, from which everything arises. But these are just ideas...

Here's what I posted before in the other discussion, I'm not sure if I can present it much better...
christopher::: wrote:If you look past differences in terminology and focus instead on methods, the nondual teachings of highly realized beings sound quite similar, imo, whether Hindu, Buddhist, Native American, Kabbalah, Taoist, Gnostic, Sufi, etc..

Most encourage meditation and the cultivation of inner silence, the practice of kindness, generosity, equanimity and compassion. They encourage us to observe the mind and the world carefully, so as to see how we are connected to all that surrounds us, an expression of a deeper shared truth that is everywhere... Separation is the ultimate delusion they say.

How they describe the Universe or "Ultimate Reality" (the words and conceptions) will differ, but most caution that the perceptions we hold in our heads are nothing like that mysterious reality itself, and better to cultivate a still non-egocentric mind and grateful heart then to think too much or become overly analytical.

Let go of all ideas of "you" and return to a "truer" realization of this deeper identity (or non-identity) which is the same for all beings.. Its hard to step into a nondual awareness if one focuses only on differences without keeping in mind connections and shared commonalities.

Each of us is drawn to the spiritual path and to teachers that resonate with our sensibilities. Buddhism, Taoism and Vendanta are not the same, just as Mint Chip differs from Vanilla which is not the same as Strawberry, and yet at a deeper level (beneath differences of flavor) they are all the same in that they are all manifestations of Ice Cream..

:namaste:

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"The natural state is a non-state of not-knowing, non-concluding. When there is knowing, there is a state. But your real nature is not-knowing. It is a total absence of all that you think you are, which is all that you are not. In this total absence of what you are not, there is presence. But this presence is not yours. It is the presence of all living beings."

~Jean Klein (Advaita teacher)

"We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all."

~Kalu Rinpoche (Tibetan Buddhist)

“When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. Between these two my life moves.”

Sri Nisargadatta (Advaita Vedanta)

"A flower cannot be by herself alone. A flower has to "inter-be" with everything else that is called non-flower. That is what we call inter-being. You cannot be, you can only inter-be... So the true nature of the flower is the nature of inter-being, the nature of no self. The flower is there, beautiful, fragrant, yes, but the flower is empty of a separate self. To be empty is not a negative note. Nagarjuna, of the second century, said that because of emptiness, everything becomes possible. So a flower is described as empty. But I like to say it differently. A flower is empty only of a separate self, but a flower is full of everything else. The whole cosmos can be seen, can be identified, can be touched, in one flower. So to say that the flower is empty of a separate self also means that the flower is full of the cosmos. It’s the same thing. So you are of the same nature as a flower: you are empty of a separate self, but you are full of the cosmos."

~Thich Nhat Hanh (Vietnamese Zen Buddhist)

"All things are linked with one another, and this oneness is sacred; there is nothing that is not interconnected with everything else. For things are interdependent, and they combine to form this universal order."

~Marcus Aurelius

"If we have awareness and understanding, if we study with wisdom and mindfulness, we will see Dhamma as reality. Thus, we sill see people as constantly being born, changing and finally passing away. Everyone is subject to the cycle of birth and death, and because of this, everyone in the universe is as One being. Thus, seeing one person clearly and distinctly is the same as seeing every person in the world.

In the same way, everything is Dhamma. Not only the things we see with our physical eye, but also the things we see in our minds. A thought arises, then changes and passes away. It is ''nāma dhamma'', simply a mental impression that arises and passes away. This is the real nature of the mind. Altogether, this is the noble truth of Dhamma. If one doesn't look and observe in this way, one doesn't really see! If one does see, one will have the wisdom to listen to the Dhamma as proclaimed by the Buddha.

Where is the Buddha? The Buddha is in the Dhamma. Where is the Dhamma? The Dhamma is in the Buddha. Right here, now! Where is the Sangha? The Sangha is in the Dhamma. The Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha exist in our minds, but we have to see it clearly. Some people just pick this up casually saying, ''Oh! The Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha exist in my mind''. Yet their own practice is not suitable or appropriate. It is thus not befitting that the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha should be found in their minds, namely, because the ''mind'' must first be that mind which knows the Dhamma. Bringing everything back to this point of Dhamma, we will come to know that, in the world, truth does exist, and thus it is possible for us to practice to realize it.

Whether a tree, a mountain or an animal, it's all Dhamma, everything is Dhamma. Where is this Dhamma? Speaking simply, that which is not Dhamma doesn't exist. Dhamma is nature. This is called the ''Sacca Dhamma'', the True Dhamma. If one sees nature, one sees Dhamma; if one sees Dhamma, one sees nature. Seeing nature, one knows the Dhamma.

And so, what is the use of a lot of study when the ultimate reality of life, in its every moment, in its every act, is just an endless cycle of births and deaths? If we are mindful and clearly aware when in all postures (sitting, standing, walking, lying), then self-knowledge is ready to be born; that is, knowing the truth of Dhamma already in existence right here and now."


~Ajahn Chah, Dhamma Nature

"To say ‘I am not this’ or ‘I am that’ there must be the ‘I’. This ‘I’ is only the ego or the ‘I’-thought. After the rising up of this ‘I’-thought, all other thoughts arise. The ‘I’-thought is therefore the root-thought. If the root is pulled out, all others are at the same time uprooted. Therefore seek the root-’I’, question yourself ‘Who am I ?‘, find out its source. Then all these will vanish and the pure Self will remain over... There is no investigation into the Atman. The investigation can only be into the non-Self. Elimination of the non-Self is alone possible. The Self being always self-evident will shine forth of itself. Self-surrender leads to realisation just as inquiry does.."

~Ramana Maharshi (Advaita Vedanta)

"When we practice zazen, all that exists is the movement of the breathing, but we are aware of this movement. You should not be absent-minded. But to be aware of the movement does not mean to be aware of your small self, but rather your universal nature, or Buddha nature. This kind of awareness is very important, because we are usually so one-sided. Our usual understanding of life is dualistic: you and I, this and that, good and bad. But actually these discriminations are themselves the awareness of the universal existance. "You" means to be aware of the universe in the form of you, and "I" means to be aware of it in the form of I. You and I are just swinging doors. This kind of understanding is necessary. This should not even be called understanding; it is actually the true experience of life through Zen practice."

- Shunryu Suzuki (Zen Buddhist)

"If you are seeking liberation, my son, avoid the objects of the senses like poison and cultivate tolerance, sincerity, compassion, contentment, and truthfulness as the antidote. You do not consist of any of the elements -- earth, water, fire, air, or even ether. To be liberated, know yourself as consisting of consciousness, the witness of these. If only you will remain resting in consciousness, seeing yourself as distinct from the body, then even now you will become happy, peaceful and free from bonds. You do not belong to the brahmin or any other caste, you are not at any stage, nor are you anything that the eye can see. You are unattached and formless, the witness of everything -- so be happy."

~The Ashtavakra Gita (Advaita Vedanta)

"Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still. The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature."

~Lao Tsu, Tao te Ching

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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