Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

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fifthson
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:13 am

If the 4 jhanas is not "the type of sammasamadhi leading to magga", why is it mentioned in the Noble Eightfold Path?

sammasamadhi (right concentration), the 4 jhanas is also the right concentration. However, attainment of the jhanas alone is mainly the concentration which is not totally eradicate the defilement, jpanas is extinction (cessation of defilements) by suppression.


jhanas is samasamadhi.

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Kumara
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:06 am

fifthson wrote:sammasamadhi (right concentration), the 4 jhanas is also the right concentration. However, attainment of the jhanas alone is mainly the concentration which is not totally eradicate the defilement, jpanas is extinction (cessation of defilements) by suppression.

jhanas is samasamadhi.
I don't see how that answers the question. All other factors on their own also don't totally eradicate the defilements, right?
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fifthson
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:16 am

All the eight must happened together to do so.

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Kumara
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:42 am

fifthson wrote:All the eight must happened together to do so.
In saying that, you're also saying that one of the 4 jhanas must be happening to totally eradicate the defilements, right?
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fifthson
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by fifthson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:24 pm

There are two types of Arahants - one who attained Arahantship through vipassana (then he or she had no need to gain jahna for the enlightenment), and the one who attained the enlightenment started with samadhi, then vipassana.

So if that Arahant (or the lower level of attainment) is the latter then he or she had the jahna. Jhana is not the requirement for arahantship. The word sammasamadhi=right concentration, vipassana that leads to arahantship is also sammasamadhi by itself (vipassana has no need to have right concentration to the level that gain one of the four jahna).

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Kumara
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:08 am

fifthson wrote:There are two types of Arahants - one who attained Arahantship through vipassana (then he or she had no need to gain jahna for the enlightenment), and the one who attained the enlightenment started with samadhi, then vipassana.

So if that Arahant (or the lower level of attainment) is the latter then he or she had the jahna. Jhana is not the requirement for arahantship. The word sammasamadhi=right concentration, vipassana that leads to arahantship is also sammasamadhi by itself (vipassana has no need to have right concentration to the level that gain one of the four jahna).
I understand what you're saying. That's what I was taught to believe many years ago.

As I now understand, the concept of Arahant without jhana is acceptable if we are referring to the kind of jhana Visuddhimagga talks about, which is not the same as the 4 jhanas in the Suttas. If you can find any reference in the Suttas on Arahants without jhanas (the Sutta type of course), please let me know.
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SarathW
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:21 am

Is this any help? :)
------------------------
Samādhi and these supernormal powers, it may be mentioned,
are not essential for the attainment of Arahantship,
though they would undoubtedly be an asset to the possessor.
There are, for instance, dry-visioned Arahants (sukkhavipassaka)
who, without the aid of the jhānas, attain Arahantship
straightway by merely cultivating Insight. Many men
and women attained Arahantship in the time of the Buddha
Himself without developing the jhānas.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#sukha
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:33 am

SarathW wrote:Is this any help? :)
------------------------
Samādhi and these supernormal powers, it may be mentioned, are not essential for the attainment of Arahantship, though they would undoubtedly be an asset to the possessor. There are, for instance, dry-visioned Arahants (sukkhavipassaka) who, without the aid of the jhānas, attain Arahantship straightway by merely cultivating Insight. Many men and women attained Arahantship in the time of the Buddha Himself without developing the jhānas.
Thanks, but that's not from the Suttas. "Sukkhavipassaka" is a commentarial concept.
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Sylvester
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Sylvester » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:35 am

Kumara wrote:My purpose to start this topic is already achieved. But now a new thing came up.

Going by this sutta, samma samadhi (which is usually defined as the 4 jhanas) is happening together with other factors. It contradicts the Theravadin notion that one needs to emerge from the jhanas to practice satipatthana.
Bhante, how about MN 78 which suggests that the 2nd Factor ceases without remainder in the 2nd jhana and upwards? Does not appear that every factor needs to be present simultaneously.

I think the simultaneity interpretation is the outcome of the Commentarial adoption of the momentariness model, probably from some pre-Theravada, pre-Sarvastivada stock. Both Abhidharmic traditions have a description of the "supramundane" citta. How that is presented in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī is gramatically capable of being interpreted in 2 ways - one of temporal disjunction and the other of temporal coincidence. The Commentaries adopt the 2nd interpretation, fitting nicely with the development of the khaṇika model.

I think AN 5.28 is useful in pointing towards post-jhanic development of insight. Take a look at how the key term "review" (paccavekkha) is used elsewhere, eg Ud 7.7.

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Kumara
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:05 am

Sylvester wrote:Bhante, how about MN 78 which suggests that the 2nd Factor ceases without remainder in the 2nd jhana and upwards? Does not appear that every factor needs to be present simultaneously.
Interesting... It seems somewhat odd to me. So, I looked up the Agama equivalent http://www.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?li ... 6_p0721b15 and found that it says nothing of 2nd and 3rd jhana. In asking 善念何處滅無餘 (where skillful thought cease without remainder), it goes on to say upon attaining 4th jhana. ???
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santa100
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by santa100 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:34 pm

MN 78 raised some interesting points. For example, "wholesome habits cease without remainder", does that mean the Factors of Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood just cease for an arahant? No, they're there but the arahant no longer associate a "self" with them. Ven Bodhi commented:
the arahant, who maintains virtuous conduct but no longer identifies with the self. Since his virtuous habits no longer generate kamma, they are not described as wholesome

Similar logic could be applied to Right Intention and other Factors..

fifthson
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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by fifthson » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:25 pm

I am not capable of finding reference in Sutra for you guys. I can only reply from what I read and heard of. In general, jhana is difficult to attain but very easy to lose it. Jhana is difficult to have, then also difficult to maintain it. Before the Buddha, jhana had been practiced but those who attained the highest level of jhana had never attained enlightenment (as they didn't know the way) except paccekabuddha. In order to contemplate (vipassna) the facts of dhamma, khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is sufficient. That is why there are much more sukkhavipassaka arahants than those with jhana and vipassana.

But this does not mean to discourage practice of concentration. It is in each own nature. If anyone feels like practicing concentration as the step for vipassana, it is his/her accumulation from previous life. It is what he/she used to do and willing to do it.

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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Sylvester » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:04 am

Kumara wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Bhante, how about MN 78 which suggests that the 2nd Factor ceases without remainder in the 2nd jhana and upwards? Does not appear that every factor needs to be present simultaneously.
Interesting... It seems somewhat odd to me. So, I looked up the Agama equivalent http://www.cbeta.org/cgi-bin/goto.pl?li ... 6_p0721b15 and found that it says nothing of 2nd and 3rd jhana. In asking 善念何處滅無餘 (where skillful thought cease without remainder), it goes on to say upon attaining 4th jhana. ???

Yup, that's correct. Ven Analayo addresses this in his Comparative Study of the MN. Using "lower criticism", he opines that that section of MA 179 appears to have suffered a textual error, given that other sutras in the Sarva collection in the MA and SA employ the usual formula that the speech formation disappears in 2nd jhana.

It could be a simple transcription error, or it could also be due to another textual difference between MN 78 and MA 179. The former posits Right Effort as the cause for the cessation of unskillful intentions, while the latter posits Right Mindfulness as the cause. This might have something to do with how the nascent-sectarian "Commentarial" material treat the "cease without remainder" passages. These are increasingly tied to the 4 Fruits, and also marks the coming of age of "Right Mindfulness" as an insight/vipassana practice leading to the Fruits, rather than a samatha practice that leads to temporary liberation. You see a hint of this in the Pali Commentary to MN 78 which identifies the jhanic locus of the remainderless cessation of unskillful intentions as being the fruit of Non-Return, a method echoed in the Commentary to MN 44's discussion of the abandonment of the anusayas. I'm not au fait with the Sarva Abhidharma, but it would not surprise me if the Sarvas, like the Theravada, linked specific supramundane jhanas to specific Fruits.

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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Sylvester » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:39 am

santa100 wrote:MN 78 raised some interesting points. For example, "wholesome habits cease without remainder", does that mean the Factors of Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood just cease for an arahant? No, they're there but the arahant no longer associate a "self" with them. Ven Bodhi commented:
the arahant, who maintains virtuous conduct but no longer identifies with the self. Since his virtuous habits no longer generate kamma, they are not described as wholesome

Similar logic could be applied to Right Intention and other Factors..

That's a good observation. However, there is at least one sutta that would go much further than BB about the utter inability of an Arahant to generate a meritorious, demeritorious or impertubable saṅkhara , eg SN 12.51. That sutta drives home the imperative for saṅkhara to be the necessary condition of consciousness; the guarantee for the impossibility of any post-mortem arising of an Arahant's consciousness stems for the assertion that the Arahant does not generate any of the 3 kinds of volition.

The word "generate" is abhisaṅkharoti, something that the Buddha might have chosen specifically in response to the magical position occupied by abhisamskaroti in Vedic thought. It seems that perhaps the Abhidhamma is correct in infering that Arahants are essentially experiencing kamma in a sort of auto-drive fashion, rather than actively making kamma.

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Re: Ref. for "all 8 factors can be present simultaneously"?

Post by Kumara » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:00 am

Sylvester wrote:It seems that perhaps the Abhidhamma is correct in infering that Arahants are essentially experiencing kamma in a sort of auto-drive fashion, rather than actively making kamma.
"Auto-drive"? Sounds like a robot to me.

As far as my experience goes, when my mind is overwhelmed by defilements, it's on "auto-drive"! :-)
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